Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Winot]

Unless I missing something obvious that IT article still doesn't demonstrate the border impacts of a zero tariff UK scenario (equal treatment for all) which kind of undermines its main argument.

I think the point is that the UK could choose to have zero tariffs (and therefore no customs checks for goods going into the UK) but in practice that would be politically impossible.

What I don't know is what would happen in that theoretical scenario with goods going the other way into the EU. I'm guessing they would be zero tariff that way too, but don't know enough to say for sure.

I think the bigger problem is the non-tariff barriers (e.g. food safety) requiring checks.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes. If those doing the inviting are elected.

So you invited the big capitalists into the decision making bodies of the EU? Take some responsibility for that - it's your world now. Thanks for that.

 

[pocketscience]

Sort of suggests that there's something else at play here doesn't it?

I hope you're not suggesting that the Irish politicians are possibly being leaned on by their EU rulers? That would be unprecedented

 

[butchersapron]

I apologise if I missed it, but if you voted brexit I do see it being up to you I'm afraid.
If not the brexiteers, then who?

Why have you responded to every single poster who clearly has said that they didn't vote to leave the EU as if they did vote to leave the EU? A perfunctory, oh i didn't see that might cover it once - but over and over?

Do you still think Dexter is a fascist btw?

 

[philosophical]

The majority Unionist population is the real obstacle, Brexit or no Brexit.

And the Good Friday Agreement has been a step forward in engaging with the Unionists (majority?). Brexit and the UK election has pushed extreme Unionists closer to the Tories, and made that obstacle much bigger.

 

[butchersapron]

I hope you're not suggesting that the Irish politicians are possibly being leaned on by their EU rulers? That would be unprecedented

OUTRAGEOUS

 

[Wilf]

The brexit vote is 'interpreted' to mean many things. You may think my interpretation is wrong fair enough, but does it make your interpretation right? Very probably not.
You ask why people ought to have thought things through before the vote, well brexit voters constantly say they knew what they were voting for so my answer to that is tell us the details of the land border in Ireland then if you knew what you were doing. A brexit referendum is a one time event unlike a general election every five years, the Good Friday Agreement is an international treaty. Brexit voters wanted it, knew what they were doing, but surprise surprise practical solutionx are either a secret or for others to do the dirty work.
Whatever motivated voters doesn't matter now the damage is done what matters is for brexit voters to reveal the solutions they had in mind. Brexit voters abdicating responsibility put me in mind of Marie Antoinette saying 'let them eat cake'. You write above that voters didn't have a say, yes they did they had a vote and used it. And brexit won. In my view it is 100% down to all those brexit voters to reveal their solutions to the problems.

But you're doing it again. You miss the point of representative democracy - it's about people not being involved, not having power, not being in a position to influence policy in direct ways. It's the passing of all that power to politicians. Similarly, the referendum was set up as a single event. There were no subsidiary questions or 2nd referenda on the final deal with the EU. Or, to get straight to it: you seem to expect voters should have had a solution to the Irish border in mind when voting. Even if that is reasonable, how would those 17m ideas on the Irish border have been put into practice? How would it have worked? The mechanics of voting in the referenda had no way of scooping up those numerous and diverse ideas. OKay, here's my solution - a united Ireland. Technically, I wasn't a brexit voter, but there you go, you want a solution. But where does that go? How does it get fed into decision making? Answer: it doesn't.

 

[krtek a houby]

And the Good Friday Agreement has been a step forward in engaging with the Unionists (majority?). Brexit and the UK election has pushed extreme Unionists closer to the Tories, and made that obstacle much bigger.

The GFA could not have forseen Brexit, I feel it throws the whole thing into mass confusion. Genuinely worried about what happens next.

 

[philosophical]

I'm simply saying that one solution to the border issue is to create a reunified Ireland. Or, if the ROI don't want reunification, for them to make that plain, and thus for the ROI to put a hard border in place in line with their own wishes, which ends the whole border discussion.

I'm not saying this will happen, nor am I saying it is "what people voted for" (as if every decision needed to create Brexit each had its own tick-box). I'm just saying it is a solution. It is never the case that there are no solutions, it's just that the solution set that people are willing to consider is restricted ideologically. That's fine, but lets have that ideology front and centre.

It may be a solution, but the problem is the practical steps to, as you say, 'create' a United Ireland. Have you any practical steps to suggest?

 

[kabbes]

It may be a solution, but the problem is the practical steps to, as you say, 'create' a United Ireland. Have you any practical steps to suggest?

You're very demanding in terms of other people creating an entire end to end process for every aspect of this thing. There's a whole army of civil servants that are employed to create the practical steps to achieve an agreed goal.

My first practical step is to shoot Theresa May into space with a banner that reads "NORTHERN IRELAND IS YOUR PROBLEM NOW LOL"

Of course, reunification is an impossible practical reality. Look at Germany, still separated into East and West.

 

[not-bono-ever]

as long we the mainland brits are not getting bombed , then Ireland was out of the picture. Now it has raised it head again, we are all interested. Everyone is an expert.

 

[pocketscience]

I think the point is that the UK could choose to have zero tariffs (and therefore no customs checks for goods going into the UK) but in practice that would be politically impossible.

What I don't know is what would happen in that theoretical scenario with goods going the other way into the EU. I'm guessing they would be zero tariff that way too, but don't know enough to say for sure.

I think the bigger problem is the non-tariff barriers (e.g. food safety) requiring checks.

The shoe would be on the other foot re the border/ GFA impact/ moral high ground. imo the EU have inadvertently given the UK leverage in the negotiations by making such a drama out of it.

 

[philosophical]

Bur suddenly interested parties - ones who previously had nothing to say whatsoever about partition or border - insist that it is at the forefront of their minds, the thing that keeps them up at night. Some of them even have irish passports and brothers who've been to ireland.

You can't resist the snide can you? Or playing the person not the issue, which might explain your enquiry above as to my interest in the matter.

Not 'suddenly', and I have had plenty to say, but haven't said it on here...as I indicated above. However you were in disguise asking for my interest, it wasn't a genuine enquiry, but an attempt to gain some kind of ammunition that you can misuse. Your approach to this discussion suggests to me an eagerness for some kind of validation from your mates because you have selected what you might percieve to be an easy target.

I try to refrain from asking others personal questions about their lives, but if a person is open enough to disclose something, I wouldn't then use it as a stick to try to beat them with.

 

[philosophical]

Democracy-squared

Democracy nonetheless.

 

[kabbes]

Democracy nonetheless.

And good for you that you are satisfied with it as a process.

 

[philosophical]

Why have you responded to every single poster who clearly has said that they didn't vote to leave the EU as if they did vote to leave the EU? A perfunctory, oh i didn't see that might cover it once - but over and over?

Do you still think Dexter is a fascist btw?

I am uncertain exactly how people voted, tried to track down the post that revealed it and failed, hence the use of the word 'if'.

 

[krtek a houby]

You're very demanding in terms of other people creating an entire end to end process for every aspect of this thing. There's a whole army of civil servants that are employed to create the practical steps to achieve an agreed goal.

My first practical step is to shoot Theresa May into space with a banner that reads "NORTHERN IRELAND IS YOUR PROBLEM NOW LOL"

Of course, reunification is an impossible practical reality. Look at Germany, still separated into East and West.

Not to forget Cyprus

 

[philosophical]

Why have you responded to every single poster who clearly has said that they didn't vote to leave the EU as if they did vote to leave the EU? A perfunctory, oh i didn't see that might cover it once - but over and over?

Do you still think Dexter is a fascist btw?

As mentioned above, you continually ask me questions, often for personal disclosure, and then you're straight in with the snide comment. Will your next one be in order to gain validation and approval from Dexter?

 

[butchersapron]

I am uncertain exactly how people voted, tried to track down the post that revealed it and failed, hence the use of the word 'if'.

They literally say how they voted in the posts that you pretend to respond to. Over and over.

 

[butchersapron]

As mentioned above, you continually ask me questions, often for personal disclosure, and then you're straight in with the snide comment. Will you next one be in order to gain validation and approval from Dexter?

I do think so, yes. Come on Dexter - out with it.

 

[pocketscience]

You're very demanding in terms of other people creating an entire end to end process for every aspect of this thing. There's a whole army of civil servants that are employed to create the practical steps to achieve an agreed goal.

My first practical step is to shoot Theresa May into space with a banner that reads "NORTHERN IRELAND IS YOUR PROBLEM NOW LOL"

Of course, reunification is an impossible practical reality. Look at Germany, still separated into East and West.

I'm sure philosophical just cant wait to provide us with his detailed roadmap of how the EUs Federal Convergence programme should be implemented and how the UK would achieve a fair representation within it, considering its ever shrinking role (had remain had won the ref that is).
Obviously he had the whole thing scoped and planned before casting his vote at the ref

 

[philosophical]

But you're doing it again. You miss the point of representative democracy - it's about people not being involved, not having power, not being in a position to influence policy in direct ways. It's the passing of all that power to politicians. Similarly, the referendum was set up as a single event. There were no subsidiary questions or 2nd referenda on the final deal with the EU. Or, to get straight to it: you seem to expect voters should have had a solution to the Irish border in mind when voting. Even if that is reasonable, how would those 17m ideas on the Irish border have been put into practice? How would it have worked? The mechanics of voting in the referenda had no way of scooping up those numerous and diverse ideas. OKay, here's my solution - a united Ireland. Technically, I wasn't a brexit voter, but there you go, you want a solution. But where does that go? How does it get fed into decision making? Answer: it doesn't.

Representative democracy is (to an extent that can be debated) about people being involved, having power, being in a position to influence policy.
It is not about passing all that power to politicians, there are plenty of examples from history where politicians with power are challenged and have to change, votes for women being one.
Representative democracy is about the interaction of people, not about the abdication of responsibility.
If your contention is that the voters could not possibly be expected to have a border solution in mind when voting, then what happens next?
Nobody has any solution, yet the brexit winners continually demand one when saying they have regained control of the borders. Do you not see how absurd that position is.
Finding a solution to the Irish border, a practical solution, would at least test the mettle of brexit voters, and might even throw up a pleasant surprise, but all I see is brexit voters (not you) avoiding responsibility, or even trying to take the single first step in their 1000 mile journey.

 

[butchersapron]

(to an extent that can be debated)

What a superb thing to put in brackets! Well done!

 

[philosophical]

I'm sure philosophical just cant wait to provide us with his detailed roadmap of how the EUs Federal Convergence programme should be implemented and how the UK would achieve a fair representation within it, considering its ever shrinking role (had remain had won the ref that is).
Obviously he had the whole thing scoped and planned before casting his vote at the ref

I'll let you provide a road map to a border solution first, it's more pressing.

 

[sealion]

Representative democracy is (to an extent that can be debated) about people being involved, having power, being in a position to influence policy.
It is not about passing all that power to politicians, there are plenty of examples from history where politicians with power are challenged and have to change, votes for women being one.
Representative democracy is about the interaction of people, not about the abdication of responsibility.
If your contention is that the voters could not possibly be expected to have a border solution in mind when voting, then what happens next?
Nobody has any solution, yet the brexit winners continually demand one when saying they have regained control of the borders. Do you not see how absurd that position is.
Finding a solution to the Irish border, a practical solution, would at least test the mettle of brexit voters, and might even throw up a pleasant surprise, but all I see is brexit voters (not you) avoiding responsibility, or even trying to take the single first step in their 1000 mile journey.

Did you vote remain solely on the border issues ?

 

[philosophical]

(to an extent that can be debated)

What a superb thing to put in brackets! Well done!

When I have collected enough of your snide comments do I win a prize?

 

[butchersapron]

I'll let you provide a road map to a border solution first, it's more pressing.

Didn't you plan it all out when you voted to allow big capital to have the dominant say on where the EU is headed then?

You are just so...shit.

 

[sealion]

When I have collected enough of your snide comments do I win a prize?

You are a snidey piece yourself. Expect it back.

 

[butchersapron]

When I have collected enough of your snide comments do I win a prize?

Try interspersing your snideness with substantive content. Goes a long way.

 

[philosophical]

Did you vote remain solely on the border issues ?

It was a huge factor for me, but another huge factor was not wanting to validate the alt right position and give them the extra power.
I considered the financials much less important that the issues of democracy, and my aspiration was towards collaboration and collective problem solving than simply running away from it all.
If you allow me to use this analogy, if a French Nuclear Installation on it's North Coast went into meltdown, the contamination wouldn't stop at the UK borders, however much brexiters said they had taken back control.