Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[kabbes]

I dunno, I can't speak for them, nor would I even try to. I've learnt my lesson on making sweeping generalisations.

Tory rule would have continued (imho) with or without Brexit happening. The odds (sadly) are against a Labour govt.

The Tories had rule in their grasp for five full years. The Brexit vote was the direct reason they now don’t have it.

 

[Winot]

I would say leaving it up to the EU is precisely the right move. Let the Irish government and EU build a border if they want one - and show their true colours.

Did you read the stuff up-thread about WTO rules about Most Favoured Nation? It's not the EU which requires checking at the border. It's the basics of international trade.

 

[philosophical]

yeh. if you think there's been a threat of violence you should bring it to the attention of the board moderators, who i am sure will treat any report you care to make with the attention it deserves.

No. I a bringing it to your attention.
I invited you to come to Lewisham and attempt to make manifest your threats but yesterday you declined.

 

[Pickman's model]

No. I a bringing it to your attention.
I invited you to come to Lewisham and attempt to make manifest your threats but yesterday you declined.

i cannot make my threats manifest as i have made no threats to you.

 

[krtek a houby]

The Tories had rule in their grasp for five full years. The Brexit vote was the direct reason they now don’t have it.

Who has it now, again?

 

[Wilf]

I am sorry if I wasn't clear. The electorate don't know how to do brexit, how to make it happen if you like. They know how to vote, as for their individual wishes I imagine they are many and varied, but overall the consequence of their vote is to condemn me at least to an eternity of Tory or Tory-lite rule, and to whip up a hatred towards foreigners as my wife and son could testify. I wonder if brexit voters are concerned that their actions have led to the validation of racism.

 

[philosophical]

Have you actually been paying attention to anything since the referendum result? Did the 2017 election completely bypass you?

No. I participated, went to the hustings and voted Labour. The election has not shifted the obstacle of the brexit vote though has it? It has been a continuation of the Tories so beloved by many on here, who got into bed with the DUP.

 

[philosophical]

I quite Agree!

Your quote serves to imply I wrote the second part which I didn't.

 

[Winot]

Anyway, I did some reading about the GFA over the weekend. My take (no expert so happy to be corrected):

1. I couldn't see anything in the Agreement per se that precluded a hard IE/NI border.

2. The GFA will definitely need to be re-written because it's full of references to EU bodies. It appears that will take time and be politically difficult, but in principle the changes aren't intellectually difficult.

3. The problem of a border seems more political/psychological than legal (not to diminish it). Memories of checkpoints etc.

4. Big problem though for NI trade with IE if there is a border - the same kind of custom/origin checks that will be needed at any EU/UK border. NI likely to be poorer - wonder how the DUP will square that with the electorate?

 

[not-bono-ever]

hold me back lads

Why not book the dome for this top of the bill bout you seem to be angling for? its not far from Lewisham and in easily accessible on public transport for the crowds expected. And there is a wide selection of food and drink outlets on site as well.

 

[pocketscience]

The only person I've seen say this is the outgoing head of the WTO, Lamy. Also a key architect of the SM under Delors. Of course he's going to make out its 'impossible', he wants to protect capitalist structures.

It was Lamy that also suggested N.Ireland could become a member of the WTO in its own right, thus avoiding the hard border that Winot says the WTO are making demands of.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Your quote serves to imply I wrote the second part which I didn't.

All your quotes are pish, though.

 

[stethoscope]

It has been a continuation of the Tories so beloved by many on here, who got into bed with the DUP.

Yeah, definitely wandered into the right forum here

 

[philosophical]

this post
View attachment 129324

The site scooped up both quotes, I was replying to the second one.

 

[Pickman's model]

No. I participated, went to the hustings and voted Labour. The election has not shifted the obstacle of the brexit vote though has it? It has been a continuation of the Tories so beloved by many on here, who got into bed with the DUP.

yeh. why not go back and read what's been said since the beginning of the thread so you don't embarrass yourself with shit like this again

the only reason i can see for you not spending a bit of time reading is that you like posting up ignorant wank.

 

[butchersapron]

The EU's strategy on borders is more and more, hard and harder and racialised if possible - extending them well beyond the bounds of it's own territory by paying poorer countries to establish and man them (complete with the sort of camps that would outrage if they happened on precious sovereign democratic EU soil). This is for economic (orderly sorting of suitable cheap labour that can be tidily exported when their worth has been squeezed out and cheaper human commodities found elsewhere), political (stopping immigration that's not economically valuable to capital as the neo-liberal policies that the EU imposes and polices cause reaction across europe - effectively the EU scapegoating immigrants for its own plans - not failures, note - plans) security (the inept failure of the EU to deal with the fallout of the implementation of its economic policies internationally - that is, driving down wages and conditions, and it's non-policy and non-action as regards assad).

For a now relatively soft example of this before the current acceleration see this:

Spain’s North African enclave of Melilla, one of the locations visited in my new book Illegality, Inc., illustrates these absurd and tragic dynamics. When the first undocumented sub-Saharan migrants arrived there in the 1990s, they simply walked across the enclave’s border. Then the first fences were built to keep them out, and suddenly a ‘threat scenario’ emerged. The migrants now came running uncontrollably – the only way of entering. As cooperation with Morocco deepened, increasing crackdowns fed the desperation among migrants, who came to see the fences around Melilla and Ceuta as a last escape route. As a result, the fences were strengthened again in 2005 with the help of EU funds. In Melilla, triple fences soon rose six metres above ground, accompanied by sensors, thermal cameras, pepper-spray mechanisms, bright spotlights and an intricate mesh of steel cables meant to trap any intruder. This mass display of force ‘worked’ for a while – until 2013 and 2014, when desperate migrants found new ways across. This February, 15 migrants died when they tried to swim around Ceuta’s fortified sea perimeter, dodging rubber bullets fired by the Spanish civil guards. Yet despite the violence, the migrants keep coming, triggering calls for further investments, on top of the €72m already spent on the fences since 2005. Madrid has asked for more money from Brussels; fortified the Melilla border with manpower, razor wire and an anti-climbing mesh; and extended cooperation with Morocco – which now involves building one more fence outside Melilla’s triple barrier, as well as another on the long border with Algeria.

On Gemany and refugees, what actually happened was Merkel/Germany unilaterally deciding to simply ignore existing EU policy to deal with a domestic crisis and impose that across europe - no democratic input from any of the other states to whom germany then insisted take 'their share' of the refugees. And a close look at how Germany then used this tighten up the - already harsh - existing terms of residence etc for both refugees and immigrants and introduce much harsher new rules severely limiting paths to citizenship and other civil rights would be in order. This is EU democracy - germany says what happens and that's it.

To see someone argue both that the EU is more democratic than its component states including the UK (which no serious EU politician does, they are terrified by its planned lack of democratic participation and the anger this is producing but trapped by their fear of what would happen if they ever allowed any substantive democratic input) and that it supports open borders is laughable.

 

[DotCommunist]

Anyway, I did some reading about the GFA over the weekend. My take (no expert so happy to be corrected):

1. I couldn't see anything in the Agreement per se that precluded a hard IE/NI border.

2. The GFA will definitely need to be re-written because it's full of references to EU bodies. It appears that will take time and be politically difficult, but in principle the changes aren't intellectually difficult.

3. The problem of a border seems more political/psychological than legal (not to diminish it). Memories of checkpoints etc.

4. Big problem though for NI trade with IE if there is a border - the same kind of custom/origin checks that will be needed at any EU/UK border. NI likely to be poorer - wonder how the DUP will square that with the electorate?

did your reading note that the DUP were the only party to oppose the GFA? those paisleyite scum...but in ireland they are supposed to be sharing power. Mind you the tories compromised the role of the brit state as nuetral arbiter in the proccess by jumping into bed with the DUP. Represents a conflict of interest imo.

of course none of the suddenly concerned about ireland crew said shit about it then, but there you go, we've seen many issues that hitherto went unmentioned by these people become Hot Button Topics if they are deemed important to brexit

 

[philosophical]

All your quotes are pish, though.

So you have made some up and attributed them to me? Duplicitous and dishonest are you?

 

[Winot]

did your reading note that the DUP were the only party to oppose the GFA? those paisleyit scum...but in ireland they are supposed to be sharing power. Mind you the tories compromised the role of the brit state as nuetral arbiter in the proccess by jumping into bed with the DUP. Represents a conflict of interest imo.

Agreed

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

So you have made some up and attributed them to me? Duplicitous and dishonest are you?

Hahaha, I think it's fairly obvious to anyone reading it that my amazing edits were just that.

 

[Pickman's model]

So you have made some up and attributed them to me? Duplicitous and dishonest are you?

you'd know something of dishonesty, having made up threats of violence.

 

[philosophical]

The EU's strategy on borders is more and more, hard and harder and racialised if possible - extending them well beyond the bounds of it's own territory by paying poorer countries to establish and man them (complete with the sort of camps that would outrage if they happened on precious sovereign democratic EU soil). This is for economic (orderly sorting of suitable cheap labour that can be tidily exported when their worth has been squeezed out and cheaper human commodities found elsewhere), political (stopping immigration that's not economically valuable to capital as the neo-liberal policies that the EU imposes and polices cause reaction across europe - effectively the EU scapegoating immigrants for its own plans - not failures, note - plans) security (the inept failure of the EU to deal with the fallout of the implementation of its economic policies internationally - that is, driving down wages and conditions, and it's non-policy and non-action as regards assad).

For a now relatively soft example of this before the current acceleration see this:



On Gemany and refugees, what actually happened was Merkel/Germany unilaterally deciding to simply ignore existing EU policy to deal with a domestic crisis and impose that across europe - no democratic input from any of the other states to whom germany then insisted take 'their share' of the refugees. And a close look at how Germany then used this tighten up the - already harsh - existing terms of residence etc for both refugees and immigrants and introduce much harsher new rules severely limiting paths to citizenship and other civil rights. This is EU democracy - germany says what happens and that's it.

To see someone argue both that the EU is more democratic than its component states including the UK (which no serious EU politician does, they are terrified bi its planned lack of democratic participation and the anger this is producing but trapped by their fear of what would happen if they ever allowed any substantive democratic input) and that it supports open borders is laughable.

Your first part of this post sounds to me exactly what brexit voters voted for.
If my point about comparative democracies is laughable explain how in the UK two parties get 4 million votes and two seats and explain why the House of Lords exists?
Instead of laughing you have the opportunity to debate and convince if you want to try that.

 

[stethoscope]

Your first part of this post sounds to me exactly what brexit voters voted for.
If my point about comparative democracies is laughable explain how in the UK two parties get 4 million votes and two seats and explain why the House of Lords exists?
Instead of laughing you have the opportunity to debate and convince if you want to try that.

Why don't you give Butchers some respect and give his excellent post a proper reading and a response it deserves. You might actually learn something or find your opinions challenged by it.

 

[philosophical]

you'd know something of dishonesty, having made up threats of violence.

No,not made up. You keep on going on about it, possibly because on reflection you are now ashamed about the threats you made yesterday.

 

[butchersapron]

Your first part of this post sounds to me exactly what brexit voters voted for.

It certainly sounds like something a lot of remain voters say about brexit voters. I wonder why i pointed that out to you?

From the rest of your response i see that this isn't worth the candle.

 

[philosophical]

Why don't you give Butchers some respect and give his excellent post a proper reading and a response it deserves. You might actually learn something.

What is the difference between a reading (which I have done) and a 'proper' reading? One which elicits a response that fits your world view?

 

[Pickman's model]

You are mistaken in your belief. When you said 'other whacks are available' I assumed you were threatening being Bertie Big Bollocks yourself, so 'available' is the key word here, not that there are 'other ways'.
Don't you fancy youtube fame then?

how did you get from this 'i assumed' to your current invitation to 'make manifest your threats', in the light of my constant position that no threats were intended?

you invented these threats, my lovely, and i'd be grateful if you could uninvent them pronto.

 

[stethoscope]

What is the difference between a reading (which I have done) and a 'proper' reading? One which elicits a response that fits your world view?

You barely read it and you know damn well you didn't, as your quick reactionary reply merely shows. You have absolutely no intention of having a genuine, honest discussion here at all.

 

[Wilf]

Philosophical, if we wanted a perfect example of liberal sneering, you provide it. In fact if we wanted an example of the attitudes that drove people into voting brexit, you provide that too. 2 years on and no lessons learned, no reflection. All you've got is clinging on to the view that the bulk of people are thick racists. You really are what is wrong with British politics.

 

[Pickman's model]

You barely read it and you know you damn well you didn't, as your quick reactionary reply merely shows. You have absolutely no intention of having a genuine, honest discussion here at all.

he wouldn't know honesty if it offered him a free meal at a fancy restaurant on the strand.