not-bono-ever
meh
we are in a bit of a pickle, thats for sure
Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Tory brexit is back. Sub farage rhetoric and no actual politics. Order restored.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
I score 25 points 
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
It's ever present.
toblerone3
Grrrrr
No it is not. And how is aligning with UKIP and the right-wing of the Tory party to support hard brexit necessarily pro-socialist FFS. Its the very opposite.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
If only we were in a bit of a jam. Then Corbyn would know what to do.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's always a disappointment to see your thought processes
toblerone3
Grrrrr
OK so you're playing for time until you can come up with a riposte. What are your thought processes?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Ukip? You raise that spectre and you look a clueless muppet. What fucking ukip - four leaders in a mite over 18 months, they're broadly gone. Plus the ripping of the Tory party hasn't even really started. A hard brexit fucks the tory party as it's fucked ukip. It opens up the potential for new political possibilities.
not-bono-ever
meh
now thats positivity. This had better work out.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How much more time do you need for your riposte? A day? A week? A month? Longer?
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
given that a hard Brexit will fuck over the working classes very, very badly indeed, I fail to see what is socialist about it - or, indeed, any form of Brexit.
The one thing it is most certainly not, is 'workers of the world unite'.
So a pragmatic alliance to stop it may also be Indeed more liberal than socialist - but it makes progressive sense.
Brexit is a hard right scam posing as a workers triumph
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's all fucked up, no matter how it plays out.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
no, not really.
'Euro-pragmatic-lukewarm' is probably as close as you could get
Riklet
procrastinación
Why would there have to be a hard border anhway? It's just hot air.
They should stop harping on about what labour fucking members, MPs or even voters think in trite condescending manner.
They should play for time and spin it out until they can force a better hand. They need to seem like a credible ruling party not a bunch of Guardian journalists.
They should aknowledge the reality (and the reason I relectantly voted remain). There is no democracy with the EU and no debate. No negotiation has been achieved and none will be, as this is the EU's tactic and strength. Thru should appeal to a progressive future Europe as the basis of who 'we' should be dealing with. That means across Europe in other countries. An internationalist tradition fit for 21st century. And fierce debate in Britain. In all the areas where people did have do and might vote for brexit (edit: I meant Labour!). Convincing people politically and shifting society is the aim, not building the party. Have they learnt nothing?
They should tell every banker and businessman not paying the living wage and still laughing at the hand-outs from 2008-2009 to do one and get on with gearing Britain's economy for the future as a high tech high wage society or fuck kindly off. Not buy into the 'we need cheap nurses and fruit pickers' political farce.
They should aknowledge that not everyone will like this. And GOOD. What do we want, a democratic future for Europe and the majority/working class or smooth deal for the City and the better off in society.
First step is calling the bluff of 'the economy' using langauge people understand and relate too. Why is the economy growing but most people are getting poorer? Why is the extension of the EU and the euro inherently linked to this? Why is there poverty misery depression and a wasted generation across EU 2018?
Which is more important fundamentally, directly engaging with whats hapoening or scoring points from the Tory party while making yourself less electable in half your key seats? The task should be on shifting minds in a progressive left direction and any talk of reversing brexit second refurendums and staying in the single market should be dealt with openly and firmly with sound arguments.
But when even the head of what remains of the workers movements and unions are telling everyone the beaurocrats and Macrons of this world created workers' rights, theyve got a job on their hands.
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Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
totally (even EEA, CU & SM is just damage limitation)
The barbaric treatment of animals in Europe is reason enough to get out of there - We should join with Israel in becoming the first fully Vegan nation
This is the vegan capital of the world
This is the vegan capital of the world
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Tory vegan brexit
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
There's nothing socialist about it.
It's the policy of thatcher, kilroy-silk, farage and rees-mogg.
The working class voted against brexit. Do solidarity and brotherhood stop at the border now? Maybe an urban brexiteer can explain the dichotomy?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Just pages of shite.
Worsening my hangover.
Bristol coalition of shite.
ETA: do you get one day hangover bans?
Worsening my hangover.
Bristol coalition of shite.
ETA: do you get one day hangover bans?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
thats not really the story told by a demographic breakdown though.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
You can tell the middle class voted leave from all the shouting they are doing about it
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So reasonable actually means more of the same politics that we've had for the last 30-40 years, the politics that produced the Leave vote getting 52%, and "addres[sing] some of the real world reasons why some people voted for Brexit" means paying lip service to the "white working class" before telling them to go back and let the grown ups talk.
This is exactly what John Harris was criticising the piece linked to a few pages back.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Exactly who has aligned themselves with "a coalition of ultra right wing tories, UKIPers and the DUP", who is "standing with Johnson and Farage"?
The above apply to perhaps one or two U75 poster at most (and none of the people posting on this thread), nor do they apply to wider left-wing groups that backed a leave vote. The people in a coalition with the Tories were the liberals and centre-left with their Better Together grouping.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
'voting brexit to bring socialism about is stupid'
closest we've been to getting a marxist into No11 since god knows when, and we still have this ( I have no illusions about labour here, just pointing out a certain blindness). Even by the terms of an argument put in the mouths of lexit voters by their detractors, we were right
closest we've been to getting a marxist into No11 since god knows when, and we still have this ( I have no illusions about labour here, just pointing out a certain blindness). Even by the terms of an argument put in the mouths of lexit voters by their detractors, we were right
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HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
It was really good when UKIP were polling at 15 per cent though.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
the point is that there are two opposing sides in the brexit issue - and they are both led by shit bags and neither represent any sort of advance for progressive politics.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
go on, name these sides.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
(my emphasis)
Well I don't accept those are the only two positions, but leaving that to one side the bolded part is clearly not what has been argued by many on this thread (and others). Streathamite's post #5080, clearly argues that one side does represent a advance for progressive politics (or is at least more progressive than the other), so do the posts of toblerone I quoted above, see Dexters nonsense. It's been argued by many on U75 for 2+ years that to argue for anything other remain is right-wing/racist/whatever.
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