Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[paolo]

The WC trigger is pulled left right and bloody everywhere on urban. It’s tedious because it’s become meaningless.

But I think it’s faded away from the Brexit discussion, here. Hopefully. It’s another version of “the will of the people”. Ffs.


(I’m not too sure what we’re even discussing now, here, these days, but hey, same as the people running the shit show. It’s like we’re debating something as graspable as a blancmange).

 

[redsquirrel]

No it doesn't it means being upfront about the potential negative impacts of economic migration and refugees on a significant part of the population and the pressure on infrastructure and the environment and using the overall economic benefits to Britain as a whole to fund some kind of new deal involving wealth redistribution and infrastructure investment. But in a dynamic way that reskills and empowers people (perhaps enabling involvement in environmental and infrastructure projects) not creating a permanent welfare underclass. Also minimum income and employment laws need to be robustly enforced to avoid undercutting.

And that's going to be achieved by forming an alliance with Pro-remain Tories, LibDems etc in order to reverse any move to leave the EU. This post is the same type of gash that Blair, May and Cameron have been coming out with for the last 20 years - "reskilling", "welfare underclass", maybe we can have a free-trade agreement to with with it eh? Ugh pass the sick bucket.

<snip>
I don't have that "underlying worldview" that people "in some quarters" have. I'm not coming from that place at all.

Yes you do, yes you are. You've specifically said that Labour should ignore the majority leave vote and work with filth like pro-remain Tories and LDs to stay in the EU. You've called anyone who wants a "hard Brexit" (whatever that means) anti-socialist, you've called any position that supports leaving unreasonable, you've called "left-wingers" who supported a leave vote fools.

 

[sealion]

no, not really.
'Euro-pragmatic-lukewarm' is probably as close as you could get

Corbyn voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. He has opposed the EU at every opportunity.

 

[Streathamite]

Corbyn voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. He has opposed the EU at every opportunity.

true, but since 2009 his views have changed. He campaigned energetically for Remain - it just got ignored by the media

 

[sealion]

true, but since 2009 his views have changed

I doubt that.

He campaigned energetically for Remain - it just got ignored by the media

Righto.

 

[not-bono-ever]

he didnt seem that enthusiastic at the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

he didnt seem that enthusiastic at the time.

Were you relying on the media for your information?

 

[not-bono-ever]

i have to say that i never came F2F with JC during my the run up, so yes, most likely all meeja based. was i mistaken ?

 

[Pickman's model]

i have to say that i never came F2F with JC during my the run up, so yes, most likely all meeja based. was i mistaken ?

This would be the media who have had it in for JC... So quite possibly

 

[DexterTCN]

I'm sure the CND Vice President who is now pro-Trident will remain steadfast in his position.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

He campaigned energetically for Remain - it just got ignored by the media

This in the Irish Times from April 16 doesn't seem a bad representation of where JC was for the referendum campaign.

But reporting him talking fairly calmly wasn't as newsworthy as the cameron / osborne types shouting that the sky would fall if we voted out, or nigel farrago shouting about immigrants and so on...

A certain Angela Eagle is reported (more here) as having said of JC's campaigning in the referendum campaign “Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an agenda that would make a 25-year-old tired. He has not stopped. We are doing our best, but if we are not reported it is difficult.”

 

[pocketscience]

true, but since 2009 his views have changed. He campaigned energetically for Remain - it just got ignored by the media

What do you think it was since 2009 that made him see the light? The EUs altruistic handling of the greece crisis? Pacifistic expansionism in the Ukraine?
The man of principle now enlightend.

 

[teuchter]

Why would there have to be a hard border anhway? It's just hot air.

They should stop harping on about what labour fucking members, MPs or even voters think in trite condescending manner.

They should play for time and spin it out until they can force a better hand. They need to seem like a credible ruling party not a bunch of Guardian journalists.

They should aknowledge the reality (and the reason I relectantly voted remain). There is no democracy with the EU and no debate. No negotiation has been achieved and none will be, as this is the EU's tactic and strength. Thru should appeal to a progressive future Europe as the basis of who 'we' should be dealing with. That means across Europe in other countries. An internationalist tradition fit for 21st century. And fierce debate in Britain. In all the areas where people did have do and might vote for brexit (edit: I meant Labour!). Convincing people politically and shifting society is the aim, not building the party. Have they learnt nothing?

They should tell every banker and businessman not paying the living wage and still laughing at the hand-outs from 2008-2009 to do one and get on with gearing Britain's economy for the future as a high tech high wage society or fuck kindly off. Not buy into the 'we need cheap nurses and fruit pickers' political farce.

They should aknowledge that not everyone will like this. And GOOD. What do we want, a democratic future for Europe and the majority/working class or smooth deal for the City and the better off in society.

First step is calling the bluff of 'the economy' using langauge people understand and relate too. Why is the economy growing but most people are getting poorer? Why is the extension of the EU and the euro inherently linked to this? Why is there poverty misery depression and a wasted generation across EU 2018?

Which is more important fundamentally, directly engaging with whats hapoening or scoring points from the Tory party while making yourself less electable in half your key seats? The task should be on shifting minds in a progressive left direction and any talk of reversing brexit second refurendums and staying in the single market should be dealt with openly and firmly with sound arguments.

But when even the head of what remains of the workers movements and unions are telling everyone the beaurocrats and Macrons of this world created workers' rights, theyve got a job on their hands.

So: their position on Brexit should be that we leave the single market. And you think this can be compatible with having no hard border with Eire. Is that right?

 

[sealion]

What do you think it was since 2009 that made him see the light? The EUs altruistic handling of the greece crisis?

Corbyn in 2015 ,,,A Europe of Domination or of Solidarity?

 

[pocketscience]

This in the Irish Times from April 16 doesn't seem a bad representation of where JC was for the referendum campaign.

But reporting him talking fairly calmly wasn't as newsworthy as the cameron / osborne types shouting that the sky would fall if we voted out, or nigel farrago shouting about immigrants and so on...

A certain Angela Eagle is reported (more here) as having said of JC's campaigning in the referendum campaign “Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an agenda that would make a 25-year-old tired. He has not stopped. We are doing our best, but if we are not reported it is difficult.”

Eagle made that statement about the time when she went to stab him in the back

 

[Riklet]

So: their position on Brexit should be that we leave the single market. And you think this can be compatible with having no hard border with Eire. Is that right?

I think so, yeah. I don't see leaving the EU as compatible with anything else. Might as well just ignore the referendum and stay in the EU otherwise. Politically I just think it would be best if they stopped trying to play nice with everybody, it´s already starting to prove a mess.

Just say they don't want a hard border, regardless of anything. If Eire choose to do that then that's up to them. Call the EU's bluff rather than the current approach which seems to be being forced into doing one of several shit or relatively bad options. Even being drawn into "the future of Northern Ireland" should be put off... in the end this should be for (Norn) Ireland to decide.

I also think the best way to "move away" from the divisive Brexit referendum is not by getting drawn into political wrangling with the EU for 20 years. Instead, Labour or the progressive left should be moving on in practical terms, by starting to develop structures, models, technologies and ideas which will be meaningful and useful in the future. And which will get people involved, across society, at a local level, regardless of how they voted in the referendum.

I know this seems to lump me in with some right wing loonies, but too bad.

 

[teuchter]

Is there a precedent anywhere in the world for an open border between two countries which aren't in a customs union?

 

[Riklet]

Is there a precedent anywhere in the world for an open border between two countries which aren't in a customs union?

Is there a precedent for anything which has not yet happened in the future?

Open borders and a pissed off EU. Might be worth a shot Especially because there is no bloody way politically/economically an Irish government could take any action against it, regardless of what Brussels orders. We need a bit more imagination, here.

If formality were essential, what about a dual-sovereignty agreement over a period of 20 years, some kind of Andorra-style agreement? Or transitional dual sovereignty "to be discussed" in 10 years.

 

[stethoscope]

true, but since 2009 his views have changed. He campaigned energetically for Remain - it just got ignored by the media

He didn't campaign for remain because his views have changed, but he had fuck all option otherwise with the aggressive Progress/Labour moderates out to make everything difficult for him at the time. Now that he's managed to exercise more power and authority in the party, you've seen him more confident on pushing for leave.

There has been some proper denial on behalf of Corbyn supporters over this whom are also strong remainers. It doesn't matter, but accept his (and left leave arguments), understand them, and move on, not play mind tricks with yourselves.

 

[Yossarian]

Corbyn's office says he was a busy man during the referendum campaign:

"Jeremy led from the front in the EU referendum campaign. He made the positive case for remaining and reforming the EU up and down the country.
His activity included:

• 10 EU rallies, with speeches and meetings in London, Bristol, Stroud, Newquay, Perranporth, Cardiff, Blackpool, Bournemouth, Liverpool, Runcorn, Manchester, Truro, Sheffield, Widnes, Doncaster, Rotherham, Hastings, Brighton, Dundee, Aberdeen and Birmingham.
• These included a meeting with student nurses in Birmingham, a factory in Runcorn, a clean beaches event in Truro and campaigning with activists in Scotland.
• Launched the Labour In bus and the Ad Van.
• A debate on Sky News with Faisal Islam, also talked about the EU on the Agenda and the Last Leg. Appeared on the Andrew Marr show twice and on Peston on Sunday.
• Written two op-eds, one in the Observer and another in The Mirror.
• Reached more than 10 million people on social media.
• Six statements to the House of Commons and 10 PMQs on the EU.
• He has been consistent on this issue from day one of his leadership, issuing a statement in September that “Labour will be campaigning in the referendum for the UK to stay in the European Union."

 

[stethoscope]

Which doesn't contradict anything I've said. It's called politics. What do you think Corbyn's Office has to be seen to say? What options did Corbyn have given both his own MPs relentless campaigns to destabilise him? Right wing media turning the screw over divisions? Even if on the balance of things, he campaigned for remain as he thought leave would be a rocky road (it is, no one has denied that especially not left leavers), doesn't change his long held convictions and arguments which are on record.

And still, even now a resurgent Corbyn has positioned for 'soft brexit' (which I notice not one Corbyn supporter has wanted to mention), still it continues

 

[stethoscope]

'Baby eating anarchists' are sounding more like fucking Polly Toynbee nowadays

 

[Yossarian]

Corbyn does get bonus points for refusing to attend a Remain rally where he would have had to appear on the same platform as Tony Blair.

Jeremy Corbyn refused to share platform with Tony Blair at pro-EU rally, says Gordon Brown

 

[sleaterkinney]

Which doesn't contradict anything I've said. It's called politics. What do you think Corbyn's Office has to be seen to say? What options did Corbyn have given both his own MPs relentless campaigns to destabilise him? Right wing media turning the screw over divisions? Even if on the balance of things, he campaigned for remain as he thought leave would be a rocky road (it is, no one has denied that especially not left leavers), doesn't change his long held convictions and arguments which are on record.

And still, even now a resurgent Corbyn has positioned for 'soft brexit' (which I notice not one Corbyn supporter has wanted to mention), still it continues

Even now he still is saying he would have voted remain...

 

[sleaterkinney]

'Baby eating anarchists' are sounding more like fucking Polly Toynbee nowadays

 

[DotCommunist]

last time I looked the remain heads in the papers were crying that he hadn't done enough, that his heart wasn't in it and that he retains a bennite distrust of the EU etc.

just the other day was a line about 'the lexiteer undertow he still carries'

so which is it? Secret remainer all 35 years in the game* (man and boy) or bowed to what was decided at conference?


*if that be so, then he's hidden it well eh

 

[stethoscope]

Even now he still is saying he would have voted remain...

Have you got any quotes/articles more recently than end of last year I can read? Even then, what was being said 'officially'/in public seems different to what he was admitting to backbenchers.

 

[stethoscope]

I'll accept the Rick gif as a failure of much else to say (anybody who's met me knows I'm pretty much the antithesis of that).

 

[DexterTCN]

I'll accept the Rick gif as a failure of much else to say (anybody who's met me knows I'm pretty much the antithesis of that).

 

[stethoscope]

I'm the antithesis of that too, you fucking nob