Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Kaka Tim]

go on, name these sides.

the EU plus most of the business lobby plus the liberal factions of the british state vs the freidmanite factions of the british state plus anti-EU corporate interests plus nationalist populism.
leftist forces have no power to affect the arguments of the leave side (other than in a "useful idiot" capacity) and can not advance a radical agenda on the remain side- given the EUs predicable "take it or leave it" position.

So they are left with opposing regressive measures from the brexit side (NI border, employment rights, food safety). This pushes the UK towards BINO - but this leaves the UK less able to resist neo-liberal pressures from the EU than if it had stayed in.

Its a total dogs breakfast.

Given this, I think labours position - sceptical remain, help the tories hang themselves, on standby to pick up the pieces - is the least worst option.

 

[Pickman's model]

the EU plus most of the business lobby plus the liberal factions of the british state vs the freidmanite factions of the british state plus anti-EU corporate interests plus nationalist populism.
leftist forces have no power to affect the arguments of the leave side (other than in a "useful idiot" capacity) and can not advance a radical agenda on the remain side- given the EUs predicable "take it or leave it" position.

So they are left with opposing regressive measures from the brexit side (NI border, employment rights, food safety). This pushes the UK towards BINO - but this leaves the UK less able to resist neo-liberal pressures from the EU than if it had stayed in.

Its a total dogs breakfast.

Given this, I think labours position - sceptical remain, help the tories hang themselves, on standby to pick up the pieces - is the least worst option.

is that the most succinct you can be?

 

[Kaka Tim]

is that the most succinct you can be?

Sorry. Im all out of snappy, zingy slogans. "The unstoppable farce meets the immovable objections" is the best i can come up with right now. Its shit but no shitter than "brexit means brexit"

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry. Im all out of snappy, zingy slogans. "The unstoppable farce meets the immovable objections" is the best i can come up with right now. Its shit but no shitter than "brexit means brexit"

i thought you might be able to name these sides of yours with some concision.

 

[Kaka Tim]

i thought you might be able to name these sides of yours with some concision.

a pile of wank vs a pile of wank. (hope that helps)

 

[Pickman's model]

a pile of wank vs a pile of wank. (hope that helps)

you're ruining your reputation for being able to express yourself in a meaningful way

 

[DexterTCN]

thats not really the story told by a demographic breakdown though.

YouGov | How Britain Voted

Labour voters 65% remain

The only political groupingss with a leave majority were tory and ukip.

 

[DotCommunist]

you said 'the working class' not 'labour voters'. I know labour voters were majority remain, its why some in the party have insisted that SM and CU is a must because they think thats a mandate or something.

Thats something quite different to what you said though.

 

[Kaka Tim]

you're ruining your reputation for being able to express yourself in a meaningful way

its brexit - why are you looking for meaningful expression? a monkey with a typewriter would make as much sense of it.

 

[Pickman's model]

its brexit - why are you looking for meaningful expression? a monkey with a typewriter would make of much sense of it.

you claim to identify two sides. but the logorrhoea you came out with obscures more than illuminates.

 

[Kaka Tim]

you claim to identify two sides. but the logorrhoea you came out with obscures more than illuminates.

sorry to let you down - but its the best i can do.

 

[tim]

Well if the role of the EU is to dictate to its members which sort of political parties they can elect its got quite a job on its hands.Just to be clear on the scale of swing to the right within EU states , Poland and Hungary have right wing governments,in Romania , Sweden, Norway Finland and Denmark right wing parties have breached the 20% mark and taken part in government, Le Pen got a third of the vote in France and in Germany and Holland they are the opposition.

This is the far-right you are talking about not the Right. Merkel leads a party of the right. The opposition are the further right

 

[Raheem]

The two sides in Brexit are the two factions of the Conservative party. Everyone else is a passenger.

 

[toblerone3]

So reasonable actually means more of the same politics that we've had for the last 30-40 years, the politics that produced the Leave vote getting 52%, and "addres[sing] some of the real world reasons why some people voted for Brexit" means paying lip service to the "white working class" before telling them to go back and let the grown ups talk.

This is exactly what John Harris was criticising the piece linked to a few pages back.

No it doesn't it means being upfront about the potential negative impacts of economic migration and refugees on a significant part of the population and the pressure on infrastructure and the environment and using the overall economic benefits to Britain as a whole to fund some kind of new deal involving wealth redistribution and infrastructure investment. But in a dynamic way that reskills and empowers people (perhaps enabling involvement in environmental and infrastructure projects) not creating a permanent welfare underclass. Also minimum income and employment laws need to be robustly enforced to avoid undercutting.

 

[butchersapron]

you said 'the working class' not 'labour voters'. I know labour voters were majority remain, its why some in the party have insisted that SM and CU is a must because they think thats a mandate or something.

Thats something quite different to what you said though.

I wonder what is his basis for disagreeing with John Curtice that "Leave voters were disproportionately working class." Maybe he could explain - i doubt it though given that his evidence for his claim that the working class voted against Brexit is actually contains definitive evidence that this is not the case. Click the link at the end and you'll see that every section of the working class voted to leave - and by large, even huge majorities. Maybe dexter should have.

 

[toblerone3]

So reasonable actually means more of the same politics that we've had for the last 30-40 years, the politics that produced the Leave vote getting 52%....

This is exactly what John Harris was criticising the piece linked to a few pages back.

From that John Harris piece...

"Back in 2016, it was briefly fashionable to feign interest in at least some of the places that voted for Brexit and Trump and argue that people with so-called progressive politics ought to think about their problems. But in some quarters, the “in” thing is now a sour, dismissive attitude to millions of people and their supposed complaints. The underlying worldview is simple: whatever the economic context, one part of society is seen as racist, stupid, nostalgic, and brimming with senseless emotion, while another is logical, enlightened and forward-thinking and, despite the fact that the era of alleged rationalism that has now been overturned brought us such disasters as the Iraq war and a huge economic crash, the modern nightmare boils down to the fact that the first group are suddenly in charge."

I don't have that "underlying worldview" that people "in some quarters" have. I'm not coming from that place at all. I do think, however, that there has been a awful lot of poisonous coverage of Europe from the right-wing media and muckraking and pandering to xenophobic and racist sentiments.

 

[Raheem]

I wonder what is his basis for disagreeing with John Curtice that "Leave voters were disproportionately working class." Maybe he could explain - i doubt it though given that his evidence for his claim that the working class voted against Brexit is actually contains definitive evidence that this is not the case. Click the link at the end and you'll see that every section of the working class voted to leave - and by large, even huge majorities. Maybe dexter should have.

View attachment 128915

The social class scale doesn't provide a good proxy for social class as we would normally think of it, though, because it's mainly about manual versus non-manual work, so it doesn't take into account that many people do low-paid clerical/non-manual work. The data for household income is what we should be looking at, even if it doesn't give a radically different picture.

 

[DexterTCN]

you said 'the working class' not 'labour voters'. I know labour voters were majority remain, its why some in the party have insisted that SM and CU is a must because they think thats a mandate or something.

Thats something quite different to what you said though.

It's not 'quite different'. I said...

The working class voted against brexit. Do solidarity and brotherhood stop at the border now? Maybe an urban brexiteer can explain the dichotomy?

So maybe you would like to explain it.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's not 'quite different'. I said...

So maybe you would like to explain it.

yes, yes it is.

The international proletariat didn't get a vote in a british referendum for some reason. BTW when you were banging the scots nationalist drum had you suddenly stopped extending solidarity and brotherhood beyond the hadrians? or did you want out of an arrangement you felt was bad for the people of scotland? Because I think you're trying to have the cake and eat it. Among my 'remainer symptoms' list this one features heavily

 

[butchersapron]

It's not 'quite different'. I said...

So maybe you would like to explain it.

You would like dotcommunist to explain why you said the working class voted against brexit and then linked to a report saying that they voted heavily in favour of brexit?

 

[DexterTCN]

yes, yes it is.

The international proletariat didn't get a vote in a british referendum for some reason. BTW when you were banging the scots nationalist drum had you suddenly stopped extending solidarity and brotherhood beyond the hadrians? or did you want out of an arrangement you felt was bad for the people of scotland? Because I think you're trying to have the cake and eat it. Among my 'remainer symptoms' list this one features heavily

The reason internationals didn't get a vote was because they were not allowed to by those who created brexit.

When we had our (first) ref we were perfectly happy to let anyone who lives here have a vote, wherever they're from. Unlike you.

We are openly and actively pro-immigration. Unlike you.

And we certainly did extend the hand of solidarity, saying let's work together and beat the tories. You decided not to do that though.

You've no idea.

Anyway...third time. How does your self-imagined solidarity and family-only brotherhood sit with closed borders and anti-immigration policies?

Maybe a straight answer this time?

 

[The39thStep]

This is the far-right you are talking about not the Right. Merkel leads a party of the right. The opposition are the further right

I am using the words that the poster I was replying to used .He was refering to the far right government in Hungary.

 

[stethoscope]

The reason internationals didn't get a vote was because they were not allowed to by those who created brexit.

When we had our (first) ref we were perfectly happy to let anyone who lives here have a vote, wherever they're from. Unlike you.

We are openly and actively pro-immigration. Unlike you.

And we certainly did extend the hand of solidarity, saying let's work together and beat the tories. You decided not to do that though.

You've no idea.

Anyway...third time. How does your self-imagined solidarity and family-only brotherhood sit with closed borders and anti-immigration policies?

Maybe a straight answer this time?

Who's 'you' - DotCom? (because that's a non-sensical and bollocks argument), or people in England? (because that's a non-sensical and bollocks argument too).

 

[The39thStep]

The reason internationals didn't get a vote was because they were not allowed to by those who created brexit.

When we had our (first) ref we were perfectly happy to let anyone who lives here have a vote, wherever they're from. Unlike you.

We are openly and actively pro-immigration. Unlike you.

And we certainly did extend the hand of solidarity, saying let's work together and beat the tories. You decided not to do that though.

You've no idea.

Anyway...third time. How does your self-imagined solidarity and family-only brotherhood sit with closed borders and anti-immigration policies?

Maybe a straight answer this time?

The UK isnt moving to closed borders.It has and has always had for the past 150 years immigration control

 

[DotCommunist]

The reason internationals didn't get a vote was because they were not allowed to by those who created brexit.

When we had our (first) ref we were perfectly happy to let anyone who lives here have a vote, wherever they're from. Unlike you.

We are openly and actively pro-immigration. Unlike you.

And we certainly did extend the hand of solidarity, saying let's work together and beat the tories. You decided not to do that though.

You've no idea.

Anyway...third time. How does your self-imagined solidarity and family-only brotherhood sit with closed borders and anti-immigration policies?

Maybe a straight answer this time?

sorry, you said 'the working class voted against brexit. This is demonstrably false. And you've gone into 'we' and 'you'. I don't identify with a nation state in the same way as you do dexter. I find such a thing worrying. So, for a third time, would you care to correct the grievous falsehood? You know, the one you supplied evidence for yourself?

 

[DotCommunist]

good job the EU stopped that hunger strike in yarls wood eh dex

 

[stethoscope]

Dexter posts such a lot of shit it's unreal

 

[DexterTCN]

sorry, you said 'the working class voted against brexit. This is demonstrably false. And you've gone into 'we' and 'you'. I don't identify with a nation state in the same way as you do dexter. I find such a thing worrying...

I find it 'worrying' when someone brings nationalism into a conversation. Or accuses some else of it. Well normally it's 'worrying'. On urban it's usually just a deflection from someone with no answers. (normally followed by an abusive post from one of their mates)

..BTW when you were banging the scots nationalist drum...

See? I'm not working class when it doesn't suit you...I'm suddenly a nationalist, eh? Because you and your mates are always right, anyone who disagrees is...'worrying'.

I'm experiencing your version of brotherhood first hand. It speaks volumes. It's an education.

 

[Pickman's model]

I find it 'worrying' when someone brings nationalism into a conversation. Or accuses some else of it. Well normally it's 'worrying'. On urban it's usually just a deflection from someone with no answers. (normally followed by an abusive post from one of their mates)

See? I'm not working class when it doesn't suit you...I'm suddenly a nationalist, eh? Because you and your mates are always right, anyone who disagrees is...'worrying'.

I'm experiencing your version of brotherhood first hand. It speaks volumes. It's an education.

what was that you were saying about deflections?

 

[DotCommunist]

I find it 'worrying' when someone brings nationalism into a conversation. Or accuses some else of it. Well normally it's 'worrying'. On urban it's usually just a deflection from someone with no answers. (normally followed by an abusive post from one of their mates)

See? I'm not working class when it doesn't suit you...I'm suddenly a nationalist, eh? Because you and your mates are always right, anyone who disagrees is...'worrying'.

I'm experiencing your version of brotherhood first hand. It speaks volumes. It's an education.

hahaha, all at sea. Frozen sea as it is now. I'm not going to bother further Dex, you talked shit and got pulled on it- no biggie. Not to me anyway.