Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Yossarian]

last time I looked the remain heads in the papers were crying that he hadn't done enough, that his heart wasn't in it and that he retains a bennite distrust of the EU etc.

just the other day was a line about 'the lexiteer undertow he still carries'

so which is it? Secret remainer all 35 years in the game* (man and boy) or bowed to what was decided at conference?


*if that be so, then he's hidden it well eh

From what he was saying before the referendum, he sounded like a Eurosceptic unconvinced by the merits of a Conservative-led Brexit.

"Over the years I have continued to be critical of many decisions taken by the EU and I remain critical of its shortcomings, from its lack of democratic accountability to the institutional pressure to deregulate or privatise public services. Europe needs to change. But that change can only come from working with our allies in the EU. It’s perfectly possible to be critical and still be convinced we need to remain a member ... It is sometimes easier to blame the EU, or worse to blame foreigners than to face up to our own problems. At the head of which right now is a Conservative government that is failing the people of Britain ... There is a strong socialist case for staying in the European Union, just as there are is also a powerful socialist case for reform and progressive change in Europe."

 

[butchersapron]

Even now he still is saying he would have voted remain...

Funny, i must have imagined the near 50 posts from you on the Corbyn thread as to why he is shit, has shit policies, is incapable of leading labour effectively, of doing well electorally and needs to go asap etc - given that you are now suggesting what you claim is support for your position from him (not very well evidenced i must say) somehow gives it some more weight.

I do believe you've just executed a perfect Toynbee - 10/10.

 

[DotCommunist]

talking of toynbee and brexit, her column today urges sinn fein to take their seats in parliament and save us from brexit. No, seriously.

 

[stethoscope]

talking of toynbee and brexit, her column today urges sinn fein to take their seats in parliament and save us from brexit. No, seriously.

I was going to post that on the Guardian is shit thread, jesus

 

[not-bono-ever]

its a hellish worm hole of self serving politikery

 

[Pickman's model]

talking of toynbee and brexit, her column today urges sinn fein to take their seats in parliament and save us from brexit. No, seriously.

this is not the first time such a suggestion has been made, so on top of it being nonsense it is unoriginal nonsense.

 

[teuchter]

Is there a precedent for anything which has not yet happened in the future?

Open borders and a pissed off EU. Might be worth a shot Especially because there is no bloody way politically/economically an Irish government could take any action against it, regardless of what Brussels orders. We need a bit more imagination, here.

If formality were essential, what about a dual-sovereignty agreement over a period of 20 years, some kind of Andorra-style agreement? Or transitional dual sovereignty "to be discussed" in 10 years.

Basically dump the problem on Ireland, and let them work out how to resolve a crisis that's not of their making.

 

[not-bono-ever]

this is not the first time such a suggestion has been made, so on top of it being nonsense it is unoriginal nonsense.

You would think Pols would have an inkling of the reasons for this stance and maybe consider why SF may feel little obligation to give us brits a helping hand on Westminster issues.

 

[Pickman's model]

You would think Pols would have an inkling of the reasons for this stance and maybe consider why SF may feel little obligation to give us brits a helping hand on Westminster issues.

perhaps because most irish republicans would prefer to see a border in the irish sea

 

[Riklet]

Basically dump the problem on Ireland, and let them work out how to resolve a crisis that's not of their making.

Not quite what I said. But long term, yes. Because it's Ireland anyway.

Obviously there would be benefits both ways to such an arrangement. Ireland will be far far more fucked by a hard border than most of Britain.

 

[teuchter]

Not quite what I said. But long term, yes. Because it's Ireland anyway.

Obviously there would be benefits both ways to such an arrangement. Ireland will be far far more fucked by a hard border than most of Britain.

Britain has caused Ireland enough problems over the years. It doesn't seem very neighbourly.

I don't see how it's at all plausible that the EU could accept an open border between the UK and Eire. Saying it's up to the EU or Eire is not any different in effect to the UK saying "we're going to create a hard border with Ireland".

 

[andysays]

Britain has caused Ireland enough problems over the years. It doesn't seem very neighbourly.

I don't see how it's at all plausible that the EU could accept an open border between the UK and Eire. Saying it's up to the EU or Eire is not any different in effect to the UK saying "we're going to create a hard border with Ireland".

What you're suggesting by this continual focus on Ireland is 'not any different' to saying the people of Britain aren't allowed to leave the EU because it may adversely affect people elsewhere.

 

[Winot]

Britain has caused Ireland enough problems over the years. It doesn't seem very neighbourly.

I don't see how it's at all plausible that the EU could accept an open border between the UK and Eire. Saying it's up to the EU or Eire is not any different in effect to the UK saying "we're going to create a hard border with Ireland".

Leaving aside the EU, it seems that the UK would itself be breaking WTO rules if there were no checks (which is what no border means). See Bonus Section here. One example given is that no checks would effectively mean no tariffs; and if no tariffs then under WTO rules the UK would have to offer no tariffs to all WTO members (under the 'most favoured nation' rules).

 

[Winot]

What you're suggesting by this continual focus on Ireland is 'not any different' to saying the people of Britain aren't allowed to leave the EU because it may adversely affect people elsewhere.

Labour's (new) policy goes some way to sorting the Irish border issue though. Still enables leaving the EU.

 

[Pickman's model]

No it is not. And how is aligning with UKIP and the right-wing of the Tory party to support hard brexit necessarily pro-socialist FFS. Its the very opposite.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Funny, i must have imagined the near 50 posts from you on the Corbyn thread as to why he is shit, has shit policies, is incapable of leading labour effectively, of doing well electorally and needs to go asap etc - given that you are now suggesting what you claim is support for your position from him (not very well evidenced i must say) somehow gives it some more weight.

I do believe you've just executed a perfect Toynbee - 10/10.

I still think that, the Tories are making a mess of brexit, mired in sleaze, Labour should be much further ahead than they are.

But he is starting to offer an alternative to the Tories on brexit (finally), as he should. He campaigned for remain and as late as last October was saying he would vote for that.

 

[teuchter]

What you're suggesting by this continual focus on Ireland is 'not any different' to saying the people of Britain aren't allowed to leave the EU because it may adversely affect people elsewhere.

I'm saying that you can't ignore the fact that it will have effects on others. If your position is that you don't care about the consequences for Eire or for Northern Ireland then fair enough, that's your position, but state that clearly rather than taking the "nothing to do with me guvnor" stance.

 

[stethoscope]

I'm saying that you can't ignore the fact that it will have effects on others. If your position is that you don't care about the consequences for Eire or for Northern Ireland then fair enough, that's your position, but state that clearly rather than taking the "nothing to do with me guvnor" stance.

Political decisions will always have direct and indirect consequences positive and negative for people and places, and rarely even agreed upon by those affected. What a bizarre argument to go down complete with 'you don't care' sneer.

 

[andysays]

What I would say is that it's not my responsibility as a Leave voter to come up with a solution, nor should the problems around the Irish border issue (or any other issue which is, at bottom, the result of EU or WTO regulations) be used to undermine the choice people made to leave the EU, which is what teuchter appears to be doing

 

[teuchter]

What I would say is that it's not my responsibility as a Leave voter to come up with a solution,

You'll still complain when someone else can't come up with one for you, though.

 

[stethoscope]

Did you care about consequences for Greece or French worker rights under EU austerity and reform with your remain vote?

 

[andysays]

You'll still complain when someone else can't come up with one for you, though.

Will I? Let's wait and see shall we?

This is pretty desperate stuff from you, attempting to slur me and other Leave voters with positions you imagine we hold

 

[teuchter]

Did you care about consequences for Greece or French worker rights under EU austerity and reform with your remain vote?

Yes.

 

[agricola]

I still think that, the Tories are making a mess of brexit, mired in sleaze, Labour should be much further ahead than they are.

There is certainly a sizeable group of people who have decided that no amount of evidence or reality will ever result in them voting Corbyn, but there is always the very real fact that the media coverage of him is far more hostile than accorded to May - as the reaction to that Brexit speech showed (a mix of polite surprise that the CBI and IOD liked the speech, contrasted with the condemnation from the Tories and the remaining opposition in the PLP).

 

[teuchter]

Will I? Let's wait and see shall we?

Ok. If we end up with some kind of "brexit in name only" I'll keep my eye out for your complaints or lack of.

 

[Winot]

May going for soft Brexit in her speech. Sticking with EU regulatory standards. No chlorinated chicken. ECJ to play a role.

 

[stethoscope]

Yes.

I see.

 

[teuchter]

I see.

That's right.

 

[andysays]

Ok. If we end up with some kind of "brexit in name only" I'll keep my eye out for your complaints or lack of.

What does that have to do with the issue of the Irish border?

Most people who voted Leave won't be judging whether Brexit is genuine or in name only by what happens to the Irish border

 

[agricola]

May going for soft Brexit in her speech. Sticking with EU regulatory standards. No chlorinated chicken. ECJ to play a role.

That she specifically mentioned the European Medicines Agency as a body we should be part of is bizarre, given its post-Brexit history.