Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[DexterTCN]

Just a minor effect here

That's from fucking 2005!

 

[Doctor Carrot]

People are certainly angry about the delays in implementing the decision/that they lost -but when you have a militarised police occupying working class communities, millions of jobs deliberately thrown away and the construction of a narrative of ‘an enemy within’ to justify class war as policy, then I’d argue Snow is talking out of his hole.

Having still been in nappies during the miner's strike I didn't feel any of its affects. I think it's very clearly more than just rowing over trade deals, on a nation wide level anyway but yes, when it's put like that things were volatile then too but it feels to me there's divisions everywhere and not just class and divisions within the same class. Brexit's divided at family level. Whole families are divided over Brexit, communities and friendship groups. There were certainly divisions before but it seems to me Brexit has driven them deeper. When you have families literally breaking up over Brexit (and no I don't give a shit about the prime cunt's brother flouncing) it seems to me Brexit has added another deeper layer to the already existing divisions.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Having still been in nappies during the miner's strike I didn't feel any of its affects. I think it's very clearly more than just rowing over trade deals, on a nation wide level anyway but yes, when it's put like that things were volatile then too but it feels to me there's divisions everywhere and not just class and divisions within the same class. Brexit's divided at family level. Whole families are divided over Brexit, communities and friendship groups. There were certainly divisions before but it seems to me Brexit has driven them deeper. When you have families literally breaking up over Brexit (and no I don't give a shit about the prime cunt's brother flouncing) it seems to me Brexit has added another deeper layer to the already existing divisions.

Capitalism v the organised working class
Dominic Grieve v Rees-Mogg

 

[Steel Icarus]

Thatcherism isn't real because I was too young to remember her as PM

Top stuff

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Capitalism v the organised working class
Dominic Grieve v Rees-Mogg

It's clearly not just Grieve v Rees-Mogg though is it? I'm in general agreement with you but you don't have to resort to disingenuous shit like that to make your point.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Thatcherism isn't real because I was too young to remember her as PM

Top stuff

What's with the disingenuous shit here? Do you have a habit of making shit up and stuffing words into people's mouth or did you just feel like a laugh?

 

[redsquirrel]

That's from fucking 2005!

So what. You think things have changed? They haven't

Socio-economic inequalities in life expectancy are also widening in both sexes, as a result of greater gains in life expectancy in less deprived populations. Between 2011–13 and 2014–16, the difference in life expectancy between the most and least deprived widened by 0.3 years among males and 0.4 years among females, and life expectancy among the most deprived females fell over this period.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's clearly not just Grieve v Rees-Mogg though is it? I'm in general agreement with you but you don't have to resort to disingenuous shit like that to make your point.

The debate is, essentially, a battle over the best direction to protect the interests of capital. The left has abandoned any pretence at thinking about the possibilities that might open up and collapsed into team remain. I’m afraid that is the substance of it

 

[DexterTCN]

So what. You think things have changed? They haven't

I can assure you...if I want to know the infant mortality rate in males in 1841...well...I'm not.

But if you want to go further back I do have a thing for ancient Egyptians.

 

[Supine]

The debate is, essentially, a battle over the best direction to protect the interests of capital. The left has abandoned any pretence at thinking about the possibilities that might open up for team remain. I’m afraid that is the substance of it

Some of us are arguing it's about much more than capital. You just don't seem to get those points or you skip over them.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

The debate is, essentially, a battle over the best direction to protect the interests of capital. The left has abandoned any pretence at thinking about the possibilities that might open up for team remain. I’m afraid that is the substance of it

Yeah I completely agree with that but you're making out that that's all it is. It's clearly not just that to loads ordinary people who have a whole boat load of views about Brexit.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Some of us are arguing it's about much more than capital. You just don't seem to get those points or you skip over them.

No. I get it. But what I’m stating is that it isn’t. There might be all sorts of issues, pre-existing, bubbling up. But the debate about IN/OUT is, at base, about trading relations with a bloc.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yeah I completely agree with that but you're making out that that's all it is. It's clearly not just that to loads ordinary people who have a whole boat load of views about Brexit.

Yes. As I’ve explained on here, at great length, the issues that drove the vote in working class areas was driven by political alienation. It is the dominant explanatory narrative.

But, the debate about Brexit isn’t addressing any of that. Is it?

 

[redsquirrel]

I’d argue the failure of much of the left to look at things through the prism of class is possibly a more pressing point.

Didn't you get the memo Smokeandsteam class does not matter anymore. It's not like it effects your education, your health, when you will die, what job opportunities you are likely to have.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Yes. As I’ve explained on here, at great length, the issues that drove the vote in working class areas was driven by political alienation. It is the dominant explanatory narrative.

But, the debate about Brexit isn’t addressing any of that. Is it?

No and it never was going to address any of that was it? Liberals still don't learn evidenced by their desire to just revoke article 50 and ignore what leave voters are telling them, tories wanna fuck us even harder and the left are just as fucking useless as they've always been. So yeah, business as usual really only more shouty.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

No and it never was going to address any of that was it? Liberals still don't learn evidenced by their desire to just revoke article 50 and ignore what leave voters are telling them, tories wanna fuck us even harder and the left are just as fucking useless as they've always been. So yeah, business as usual really only more shouty.

So we can conclude that Jon Snow, locked in his bubble in London, was talking shite then....

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So we can conclude that Jon Snow, locked in his bubble in London, was talking shite then....

More or less, yeah

 

[Supine]

So we can conclude that Jon Snow, locked in his bubble in London, was talking shite then....

Or the opposite

 

[DexterTCN]

Didn't you get the memo Smokeandsteam class does not matter anymore. It's not like it effects your education, your health, when you will die, what job opportunities you are likely to have.

That is from 2009!

 

[Proper Tidy]

Awful lot of libdems on here these days

 

[Dogsauce]

So we can conclude that Jon Snow, locked in his bubble in London, was talking shite then....

He might be meaning the divisions and anger within the political class rather than wider society, was the miner’s strike era characterised by friction in parliament itself? Genuine question as I can’t remember myself as a bit young and it wasn’t televised then.

It’s a bit apples and oranges anyway - the 80s was workers vs state, there wasn’t almost half of society going ‘fuck the miners’ and threatening to kick off if the government didn’t close the pits. This is different and maybe more serious as separate from the parliamentary clownshow it is society vs society with an almost even split, divided across classes. This makes us all weaker and easier for nefarious shit to be enacted by those at the top, while people are distracted and disunited. Fuck knows how this is resolved but beware of opportunistic shit from Randist factions in power.

 

[Humberto]

If they are fucked if they don't deliver X, support Y. Now, if they are blocked or can sell it as such, that gives them a good hand. If we let them get on with it, and leave them to it, our interests are shrunken.

Therefore, the move is to oppose them, change government (i.e. Labour largest amount of MPs), delay and 'remain and reform' or leave with a competently realised deal.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Latest LeFT blog on the SC ruling:

Thread by @LeFTCampaign: "The central role the UK Supreme Court has played in the Brexit process is an indictment of the entire political system - wealthy individuals […]"

 

[MrSki]

Today's Times front page.

 

[krtek a houby]

Johnson allies seem to be doing that fear-mongering tactic that they've been so dismissive of, up to now. Interesting. I wonder does Cummings' musings on the "real world" extend to the 6 counties and indeed, the entire 32 counties? Let's see how much he enjoys it all, when it all really kicks off.

 

[Ming]

This is a wee bit scary. A legal way to force a no-deal in spite of everything.

 

[Dogsauce]

I’m hearing a lot of talk of them having tricks up their sleeve to still get away with a no-deal exit. This could of course just be bluffing - either aimed at the EU so that it appears to still be ‘on the table’ (as effective as if it still was) or aimed at opposition within parliament, hoping they will believe him, panic and go for a no-confidence vote that plays into his hands.

 

[redsquirrel]

He might be meaning the divisions and anger within the political class rather than wider society, was the miner’s strike era characterised by friction in parliament itself? Genuine question as I can’t remember myself as a bit young and it wasn’t televised then.

Infighting in the LP resulting in the expulsion of Militant and rejection of social democracy by the LP
Defection of gnat of four to set up new party -> merger with liberals
Attempted assassination of PM
Beginnings of the rise of the SNP

It’s a bit apples and oranges anyway - the 80s was workers vs state, there wasn’t almost half of society going ‘fuck the miners’ and threatening to kick off if the government didn’t close the pits. This is different and maybe more serious as separate from the parliamentary clownshow it is society vs society with an almost even split, divided across classes. This makes us all weaker and easier for nefarious shit to be enacted by those at the top, while people are distracted and disunited. Fuck knows how this is resolved but beware of opportunistic shit from Randist factions in power.

Not half of society but a not insignificant number of people were going 'fuck the miners’. You had right wing groups planning for the removal a PM. Major confrontations between labour and capital.

 

[andysays]

Meanwhile...

Brexit talks resume amid growing EU pessimism over new deal

Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay will travel to Brussels later, amid growing pessimism on the continent over whether a new withdrawal deal can be agreed. The EU's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, told diplomats on Thursday the UK's proposed alternative to the Irish backstop was unworkable.

 

[brogdale]

Latest LeFT blog on the SC ruling:

Thread by @LeFTCampaign: "The central role the UK Supreme Court has played in the Brexit process is an indictment of the entire political system - wealthy individuals […]"

Much plain sense in that, with the exception of the obvious contradiction of welcoming the frustration of untrammelled executive power and casting those who effected that as “anti-democrats”.