Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[DotCommunist]

I can see the attraction of that, but there aren't any simple questions to be asked and you end up with a binary choice and now we have years of rows about what leaving the EU actually means - the single market? the customs union? the court? just the EU?...

Independence referendums (referenda?) might be a different case as I can't see an alternative.

How does Switzerland do it? Don't they have them quite often?

Well I don't know with switzerland but I spoil my ballots in generals, councils and PCC elections. Its all FPTP and in the case of a GE its FPTP based on the heavily 'massaged' seat system. Its not a million miles away from being as plastic as athenian 'democracy'. If rule was done on the popular vote el trumpo wouldn't be in. Not that I fancy the alternatives to him much either but thats not the point. The process is gamed in both cases, uk and us.

I still enjoy a good GE though and who knows, maybe another one sooner than 2022

 

[J Ed]

Good so far.

So are we going to get the 'deselection is violence' stuff over Dorries' comments that we got about the merest not-even hint of deselection of Labour MPs?

 

[SpookyFrank]

How does Switzerland do it? Don't they have them quite often?

There's a fair bit of devolution in Switzerland and canton-level referendums are relatively common IIRC. Popular movements can also trigger national referenda, such as that unpleasant one which led to the banning of mosque minarets ten years ago.

 

[gosub]

The DEAL can't actually be worked up til after we leave March 2019 when we enter full on government by fax transition period of up to 2years... If the deal ain't good enough they can vote to stay in limbo

 

[gosub]

Nice shot across the bow from EASA backed by FAA today will link when home but effectively Commit to transition or lose aviation sector

 

[Puddy_Tat]

They can vote against an offered deal and also vote against no-deal exit meaning there is no leaving.

is it as simple as that, though?

can 'we' (as in the government of the UK at the time that is) just say to the EU in 2019 "oops, sorry, we haven't quite got it all sorted yet, so we're staying for the time being"?

could the EU then say "tough. sod off" or words to that effect? (and would it have to be unanimous among the other countries to agree staying?)

 

[Winot]

is it as simple as that, though?

can 'we' (as in the government of the UK at the time that is) just say to the EU in 2019 "oops, sorry, we haven't quite got it all sorted yet, so we're staying for the time being"?

could the EU then say "tough. sod off" or words to that effect? (and would it have to be unanimous among the other countries to agree staying?)

We can ask, and they can say no.

 

[gosub]

is it as simple as that, though?

can 'we' (as in the government of the UK at the time that is) just say to the EU in 2019 "oops, sorry, we haven't quite got it all sorted yet, so we're staying for the time being"?

could the EU then say "tough. sod off" or words to that effect? (and would it have to be unanimous among the other countries to agree staying?)

Possible but unlikely in that form. The pdf link I put a couple of days ago pretty much covers the arrangement as will be

https://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1-wp...ntent/uploads/2017/12/2017-12-08-08-37_01.pdf

 

[redsquirrel]

I can see the attraction of that, but there aren't any simple questions to be asked and you end up with a binary choice and now we have years of rows about what leaving the EU actually means - the single market? the customs union? the court? just the EU?...

Independence referendums (referenda?) might be a different case as I can't see an alternative.

And of course the choice at general elections are clear and unambiguous. I mean it's not like anybody who voted LibDem because of their pledge re tuition fees ending up putting a party that tripled HE fees into government.

 

[2hats]

Nice shot across the bow from EASA backed by FAA today will link when home but effectively Commit to transition or lose aviation sector

I suspect you are referring to this report?

There was this report a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the government was going to try to stay in EASA and thus effectively have to accept ECJ rulings.

 

[gosub]

I suspect you are referring to this report?

There was this report a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the government was going to try to stay in EASA and thus effectively have to accept ECJ rulings.

No it's an EASA letter published today Tapatalk Cloud - Downlaoad File 2017-12-11-notice-to-stakeholders-air-transport.pdf

 

[SpookyFrank]

Nice shot across the bow from EASA backed by FAA today will link when home but effectively Commit to transition or lose aviation sector

Presumably there will be a lot more of these in the post from other sectors.

 

[bemused]

We can ask, and they can say no.

I think that is unlikely. The EU doesn't want us to leave, they'd have to plug the budget hole and it'll add costs to business. However, I can't see them hanging on forever.

 

[Fingers]

So is the the final nail in the coffin for St Theresa? Will she survive this?

That list of no confidence MPs will surely get longer after this.

 

[MightyTibberton]

And of course the choice at general elections are clear and unambiguous. I mean it's not like anybody who voted LibDem because of their pledge re tuition fees ending up putting a party that tripled HE fees into government.

True. I do think representative democracy is the least bad system though. I wish we had some form of PR, which - unfortunately for my previous sweeping anti-referendum stance - we'd need another referendum for......

Benevolent dictator? I dunno. . .

 

[MightyTibberton]

I think that is unlikely. The EU doesn't want us to leave, they'd have to plug the budget hole and it'll add costs to business. However, I can't see them hanging on forever.

Sorry to be constantly quoting twitter at you, but I've seen it argued on there that if this does happen it's likely to be an offer of a full membership, including the Euro, and I can't see that going down well. (Sorry not to have a proper source at this moment - it wasn't just some random, it was at least a journalist, possibly even an actual expert!)

 

[MightyTibberton]

So is the the final nail in the coffin for St Theresa? Will she survive this?

That list of no confidence MPs will surely get longer after this.

Nadine Dorries is calling for all the rebel MPs to be deselected instantly! Civil war continues in the Tory party on Europe.

(Edited for spelling Nadine's name wrong. I am sorry.)

 

[Fingers]

Nadine Dorries is calling for all the rebel MPs to be deselected instantly! Civil war continues in the Tory party on Europe.

(Edited for spelling Nadine's name wrong. I am sorry.)

The look on the faces on the front benches was priceless

 

[2hats]

Presumably there will be a lot more of these in the post from other sectors.

Euratom next up.

 

[bemused]

Nadine Dorries is calling for all the rebel MPs to be deselected instantly! Civil war continues in the Tory party on Europe.

(Edited for spelling Nadine's name wrong. I am sorry.)

I didn't realise Nadine was an MP, I thought she was a second rate jungle competitor.

 

[MightyTibberton]

Voted off then.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I think we are heading towards Norway which realistically was always going to happen. There will be plenty of impotent gnashing of teeth & renting of clothes from the hard brexiteers, I’m sure.

 

[A380]

True. I do think representative democracy is the least bad system though. I wish we had some form of PR, which - unfortunately for my previous sweeping anti-referendum stance - we'd need another referendum for......

Benevolent dictator? I dunno. . .

How about referenda, but in order to vote on each one, something like the electoral commission comes up with a bank of questions to see if you have a GCSE level of understanding about the issue. So when people wanted to vote they would need to ave an idea or study what was going on.

Eg for the EU one:

Is the European Court of Justice an EU institution?

Is the European Parliament elected?

Etc.

 

[Poi E]

I think we are heading towards Norway which realistically was always going to happen. There will be plenty of impotent gnashing of teeth & renting of clothes from the hard brexiteers, I’m sure.

But no oil fund, no regional democracy like councils setting income and wealth taxes etc.

 

[DotCommunist]

How about referenda, but in order to vote on each one, something like the electoral commission comes up with a bank of questions to see if you have a GCSE level of understanding about the issue. So when people wanted to vote they would need to ave an idea or study what was going on.

Eg for the EU one:

Is the European Court of Justice an EU institution?

Is the European Parliament elected?

Etc.

how about appreciate that landless men and women under 25 waited a long fucking time and spilt a fair bit of blood to gain the vote* and them exercising it in a manner that displeases you isn't sufficient grounds to start measuring the skulls of people before they get a vote


*not that its perfect but ffs

 

[Pickman's model]

How about referenda, but in order to vote on each one, something like the electoral commission comes up with a bank of questions to see if you have a GCSE level of understanding about the issue. So when people wanted to vote they would need to ave an idea or study what was going on.

this would rule out much of the parliamentary conservative party for a start

 

[A380]

how about appreciate that landless men and women under 25 waited a long fucking time and spilt a fair bit of blood to gain the vote* and them exercising it in a manner that displeases you isn't sufficient grounds to start measuring the skulls of people before they get a vote


*not that its perfect but ffs

But not this type of government. This is about giving people a role in the executive. Still unlimited franchise ( I’d lower it to 15) for elections to the representative.

We haven’t been able to have direct democracy in the executive since we moved from city states. Technology now makes it possible.

How about you stop equating me to a fascist because I propose an idea that would take revolutionary control away from the cadres and actually give it to the people?

 

[A380]

this would rule out much of the parliamentary conservative party for a start

Another benofit of this system I had’t considered...

 

[DotCommunist]

But not this type of government. This is about giving people a role in the executive. Still unlimited franchise ( I’d lower it to 15) for elections to the representative.

We haven’t been able to have direct democracy in the executive since we moved from city states. Technology now makes it possible.

How about you stop equating me to a fascist because I propose an idea that would take revolutionary control away from the cadres and actually give it to the people?

I thought you wanted a special body to set special tests to see if someone is qualified to vote on a given subject or question? Power to the people, power to the people right on

 

[A380]

Anyway, just been on the Mail’s comment section. It gives me a warm feeling inside.