Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[pocketscience]

If 'freedom of movement' is merely a tool of capital,

Nobody has implied that 'freedom of movement' is a capitalist tool here. What has been implied is that the rules of the EU's FOM are stacked up to benifit capital.

then within the confines of the realistic, what would you prefer to see instead? An end to migration?

IMO, if the EU was serious about FOM, they'd do well to look at expanding the UK model across the continent. No ID, No Registration, NHS for all.

 

[mojo pixy]

If 'freedom of movement' is merely a tool of capital, then within the confines of the realistic, what would you prefer to see instead? An end to migration?

That's a bit of a false dichotomy tbf. Better would be a situation where people migrated only because they wanted to and not because they had to. I don't see how the UK leaving the EU will facilitate this state of affairs. But the UK remaining in won't help either.

Basically, whichever way it's sliced, capital wins, and IMO it's a pretty shabby joke that Brexit is going to help the poorest any more than the EU would do. Either way, migration is still going to stay open for the rich and closed for the poor.

 

[seventh bullet]

is this true ?

Why would he make it up?

 

[mauvais]

Nobody has implied that 'freedom of movement' is a capitalist tool here. What has been implied is that the rules of the EU's FOM are stacked up to benifit capital.

IMO, if the EU was serious about FOM, they'd do well to look at expanding the UK model across the continent. No ID, No Registration, NHS for all.

Ironically, domestic resistance to this is arguably a large part of what gave us Brexit.

 

[mauvais]

Some of these folks will be pulling out of NATO then? Now they've sorted their own security.

NATO is not necessarily sustainable, which recent events have made clearer, and dissolution of NATO poses an existential threat to the European defence model - that meaning not just the literal defence of Europe but all the other stuff that goes with it. If America becomes isolationist, or its interests sufficiently divergent, then Europe has a big problem. It's not a new one - this is why things like GALILEO exist - but it may be growing.

Some big ifs ahoy - if you treat this as a serious possibility, and if you consider Europe to have a common defence interest, and it should go without saying if you come at this from existing defence perspectives (i.e. you don't regard it all as an expensive waste of time), then European defence collaboration is a sensible & practical goal. The non-US elements of NATO are not enormously well aligned - there's lots of missing or duplicate capability - and putting some structure in place helps reduce this.

All that is to say, it doesn't require imperialist ambitions of a federal EU for this idea to exist - though it surely doesn't preclude them - as it can be considered a re-envisioning of NATO with purely European interests. Also, following the money, not bad news for Airbus and the like.

Probably bad news for Britain, which would seemingly rather side with the Americans come what may rather than timeshare aircraft carriers with the French.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Nothing subtle about Greece. But don't worry they're working on the brute force.

Every time I see Juncker's name I get a little jolt of gladness that Britain will be leaving the EU.

 

[bemused]

Probably bad news for Britain, which would seemingly rather side with the Americans come what may rather than timeshare aircraft carriers with the French.

Given how slow the EU are at reacting to anything doubt we'll see the EU armed forces doing much.

 

[Poi E]

They'd never know if they were to march east or west.

 

[Teaboy]

Given the relative might of the UK armed services (compared to most of Europe) this is one area the UK would have a serious bargaining chip in general negotiations.

 

[SpackleFrog]

^ I don't see why being an 'internationalist' is a bad thing. I cherish the ability to travel and work throughout Europe. I'm also happy for the same freedom to be extended to my European fam. To see it as exploitative is very narrow minded.

Nobody is saying internationalism is a bad thing. I'm so happy you have the ability to travel and work throughout Europe and you're happy to extend this to your European fam (what about non-European while we're being internationalist? Or are they not fam?) but not everybody in Europe can because what is being called freedom of movement in this context ain't that free.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I hope to christ this is satire, but I fear it's not.

Clearly a misjudged post, given the reaction. The imposition of new border controls and the current strength of anti-immigration feeling produce forces for such authoritarian measures. If not that particular one, then others. Absence of id cards is something I value in the UK, but I'm not too confident that a majority of people value it as much. The 'if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear' argument is often accepted when freedoms are curtailed.

 

[Pickman's model]

Clearly a misjudged post, given the reaction. The imposition of new border controls and the current strength of anti-immigration feeling produce forces for such authoritarian measures. If not that particular one, then others. Absence of id cards is something I value in the UK, but I'm not too confident that a majority of people value it as much. The 'if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear' argument is often accepted when freedoms are curtailed.

i think you'll find it's the 'if you have nothing to hide...' argument.

 

[hot air baboon]

Given how slow the EU are at reacting to anything doubt we'll see the EU armed forces doing much.

 

[DotCommunist]

the electoral commission finished their look into shenanigans the other day and among other ideas was photo ID at the polling booth. Given how many voters are without a passport or the means to easily afford it, well, its not on. I could see that being an 'in' for the card. Free voters card, counts as ID for fags/signing up at a job agency/etc

thing is you can see it being demanded at the hospital and all. Never been a fan of the idea of ID cards tbf.

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 122934

mark urban, the edge?

 

[hot air baboon]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ukraine-Be...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513166037&sr=1-2

 

[Crispy]

View attachment 122934

Maybe it's not that European armies are too small, but that the American one is grotesquely large?

 

[pocketscience]

Ironically, domestic resistance to this is arguably a large part of what gave us Brexit.

How so?
I don't see any compelling evidence on how having a pan european public health service would have favoured the Brexit vote. If anything, I'd say it would have worked more for the Remain vote (it would have at least taken out the argument used by the DM in their campaign that east europeans only come to the UK to abuse the NHS)

 

[mauvais]

How so?
I don't see any compelling evidence on how having a pan european public health service would have favoured the Brexit vote. If anything, I'd say it would have worked more for the Remain vote (it would have at least taken out a huge argument used by the DM in their campaign)

EU immigrants coming over here using our services, drain on our NHS, etc. - even though the reality was that they underused them. And the flipside has no benefit. Noone reading the DM gives a shit about being able to get free healthcare in Bucharest or wherever.

 

[SpookyFrank]

i think you'll find it's the 'if you have nothing to hide...' argument.

The whole thing really. But mostly the implication that certain people, because of where they come from, should be hiding and should live in fear.

 

[Pickman's model]

The whole thing really. But mostly the implication that certain people, because of where they come from, should be hiding and should live in fear.

The nothing to hide different from the nothing wrong as it's strange how proponents of the nothing to hide argument rarely invite people to see the intimate areas of their lives.

 

[pocketscience]

EU immigrants coming over here using our services, drain on our NHS, etc. - even though the reality was that they underused them. And the flipside has no benefit. Noone reading the DM gives a shit about being able to get free healthcare in Bucharest or wherever.

We'll have to agree to disagree how such a hypothetical scenario would have played out - hypothetical being the the key word there, so the point is moot.
My initial point was that EU has zero interest in a pan European public health service with regards to FOM, favouring instead the E111 system that links up for the most part what amounts to a bunch of private health companies, thus facilitating profits for capital - while also, the high costs of private health are used as a barrier to control poorer people upping sticks and enjoying one of their 4 basic 'Freedoms'.

 

[SpookyFrank]

View attachment 122934

Fails to mention who exactly we need all this crap to defend ourselves from. Even the US couldn't effectively occupy Afghanistan or Iraq, even with compliant puppet governments. I'm sure this fact isn't lost on Putin, for whom the cost/benefit of invading Lithuania or wherever just doesn't stack up at all. That only really leaves the Chinese with military resources comparable to Europe's, and there's really nothing for them to gain by invading people either.

The only major wild card on the world stage is Trump, and even he has checks and balances staying his hand. And if the US did go completely off the reservation and invade, say, Spain then it wouldn't make much difference if they had six working jets or two dozen, they'd still be completely fucked.

 

[kabbes]

What if Trump thinks hes playing Civilization and is going for a military victory?

Our only chance is to launch for Alpha Centuri before he manages it!

 

[2hats]

Our only chance is to launch for Alpha Centuri before he manages it!

Or persuade him he personally needs to get there first.

 

[DotCommunist]

Trumps more of a Risk man imo

 

[gosub]

Trumps more of a Risk man imo

monopoly

 

[kabbes]

Snakes and Ladders

 

[Supine]

Deal or No Deal

 

[gosub]

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