Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[pocketscience]

So who was silas loom on here before sept 2017?

 

[Pickman's model]

So who was silas loom on here before sept 2017?

Maurice picarda

 

[Poi E]

Ah

 

[redsquirrel]

Real politics has to be about the art of the possible otherwise it remains as political theory.

So I tend to see brexit however it turns out more as a means to an end which is the election of a majority Corbyn led Labour government.

This is part of the problem. Anything more than vote Labour for mild reform is "theoretical","unreal". Never-mind the fact that both past and present experience has shown that what social democratic parties say in opposition and do in government are often vastly different. Never-mind that the material conditions that paved the way for the post-war consensus are no longer present. Throw away socialism and help Labour get elected.

 

[Smangus]

Is it possible to see a Labour vote (government) as a 1st step to socialism at all?

Genuine question.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is it possible to see a Labour vote (government) as a 1st step to socialism at all?

Genuine question.

Perhaps its greatest obstacle

 

[SaskiaJayne]

This is part of the problem. Anything more than vote Labour for mild reform is "theoretical","unreal". Never-mind the fact that both past and present experience has shown that what social democratic parties say in opposition and do in government are often vastly different. Never-mind that the material conditions that paved the way for the post-war consensus are no longer present. Throw away socialism and help Labour get elected.

So what to do then? Not something that might bring about change in the far future or never but to bring about change in maybe the next year or 2? Do tell.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Is it possible to see a Labour vote (government) as a 1st step to socialism at all?

Genuine question.

Yes & I think most posters on this thread will be voting Labour at the next GE. Otherwise they might as well draw a spunking cock on their ballot paper or save the effort & stay at home.

 

[Smangus]

Ah spunking cock the default urban option.

 

[redsquirrel]

Is it possible to see a Labour vote (government) as a 1st step to socialism at all?

Genuine question.

Possible perhaps, but utterly mistaken.

So what to do then? Not something that might bring about change in the far future or never but to bring about change in maybe the next year or 2? Do tell.

Those are the options are they? Either barrack for Labour or else your just a dreamer? That's the same line that Blair and co used.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Why don’t you post up your options?

 

[Riklet]

It's fair to criticise Labour. And their pragmatic crowd-pleasing shambolic Brexit strategy with a different MP saying something different every night.

It's also fair to accept there is no magic button, no easy path to socialism or even 2018 social democracy. There is no decent roadmap and plenty of hard graft required.

If it was easy and popular and able to be rolled out next year well then.... It wouldn't be a radical political rethink. This is something which is going to make the people ripping us off and fucking us over furious. It's not to be taken lightly. No surprises Corbyn cant quite get most queesling labour scum in line.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Change needs to be voted for in this country. To get that change will require very careful planning & execution by some very astute people. Just sayin like.

 

[Rimbaud]

This is part of the problem. Anything more than vote Labour for mild reform is "theoretical","unreal". Never-mind the fact that both past and present experience has shown that what social democratic parties say in opposition and do in government are often vastly different. Never-mind that the material conditions that paved the way for the post-war consensus are no longer present. Throw away socialism and help Labour get elected.

I appreciate that, but we're all fumbling in the dark to some extent. You could well say that parties guided by marxism have always failed to live up to their ideals too. There are no real successful models to look to and there is no blueprint. Who is to say the failure of social democracy was not because of the historical conditions of that time or flaws in the institutions/political culture/tactics of socialist activists, and that we can't learn from these mistakes? Or perhaps things have changed so much that social democracy can now be used to abandon capitalism? These are at least things worth having a serious discussion about rather than dismissing outright.

We are all prisoners of our historical circumstances, and right now I cannot find any more productive use of my time politically than backing the Labour Party. (and I'm also involving in Diem25). Even if I took your objections to social democracy on board, and I do take them seriously, it means absolutely nothing practical to me and would just mean I go from supporting Labour and trying to push it leftwards to, well, doing nothing at all really. And you can't just blame me for not understanding it; if your politics are hard to figure out how to get involved in then that is a problem with your politics which you need to figure out a solution to. Left of Labour, the Trots are actually the most accessible but you also seem to have contempt for them too.

 

[Gramsci]

Not really, if you are Irish you're able to live in the UK anyway.

It's not that straightforward.

Brexit puts special rights for Irish citizens in UK ‘at risk’

“The British government has consistently promised that Brexit will not weaken the situation of Irish citizens in the UK, or the movement of Irish citizens to and from the UK. Yet it has not made public how it will deliver on this promise,” said report author Simon Cox, a leading migration lawyer and barrister at Doughty Street Chambers. “A close look at current British laws shows a patchwork that may fall apart under post-Brexit political and practical pressure

The detail will be important.

It also needs to be remembered that it wasn't that long ago when Irish weren't universally welcomed here in UK.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I am not convinced Corbyn in power would make it harder for grassroots stuff to happen as it seems to me decades of Tories have really cut the knackers off the WC, I think for all the anarchist panic 're putting too much faith in a more left wing Labour I think in comparison to the previous 30 years WC people seem to be showing more confidence generally esp in England and the backing of JC is just an expression of that. It's not ideal but getting really angsty about WC people voting Labour is only going to alienate people. If you truly have no faith in electoral politics just let it go, because it isn't going to matter who is power. It really is possible to vote Labour and go on strike at the same time.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

PS I have no faith in Labour but I have learned screaming about that just means I am only ever going to be talking to hard lefties. My family all voted Corbyn having never voted Labour EVER, some of them read red tops too. Try quoting Marx at them and see how far it gets, we need to be more flexible in our approach guys.

 

[Winot]

PS I have no faith in Labour but I have learned screaming about that just means I am only ever going to be talking to hard lefties. My family all voted Corbyn having never voted Labour EVER, some of them read red tops too. Try quoting Marx at them and see how far it gets, we need to be more flexible in our approach guys.

What did they vote before and what changed their minds?

 

[Humberto]

If you don't push left you are going to get out muscled and outmaneuvered by those who look down on you with something akin to hate and dominate every institution in the land and further afield. Accepting a Corbyn Soc Dem administration can only be a temporary concession in that landscape/minefield.

 

[Pickman's model]

PS I have no faith in Labour but I have learned screaming about that just means I am only ever going to be talking to hard lefties. My family all voted Corbyn having never voted Labour EVER, some of them read red tops too. Try quoting Marx at them and see how far it gets, we need to be more flexible in our approach guys.

Perhaps not quoting someone who's been dead for 134 years might be a start. It's not like you need to, the Labour party's history gives enough ammunition

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

What did they vote before and what changed their minds?

Lib dems in the case of my mum(we are from Inverness and everyone likes Charles Kennedy) I think the rest had a tendency to not be arsed with voting. But this past year they have really gotten vocal about issues, they haven't been worshipping Corbyn so much more slagging off Trump and talking about other injustices, I had only found out they had all voted Labour day after, I myself had been sitting outside the polling station thinking should I abstain then I realised the best thing to do was to add to the country wide vote share to show the UK what happens when someone at least tries to put forward socialist policies. And I am glad I did, even though Labour is dead in Orkney- I would have voted cock and balls otherwise!

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

*sorry I am drunk- the lib dem vote in the highlands is tradition, it is full of small places, Orkney still votes lib due to Jo Grimmond who was weel Kent and weel liked.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Perhaps not quoting someone who's been dead for 134 years might be a start. It's not like you need to, the Labour party's history gives enough ammunition

I know that Pickmans, I was writing a comment not a PHD in how to talk to the working class, which is also me, I am just loosely referring to what other people try to do, there is a whole list of dos and don'ts.


And I don't read much Marx being a thicko single mum.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Perhaps not quoting someone who's been dead for 134 years might be a start. It's not like you need to, the Labour party's history gives enough ammunition

You obviously have a plan Pickers. Hows about posting it up?

 

[Pickman's model]

I know that Pickmans, I was writing a comment not a PHD in how to talk to the working class, which is also me, I am just loosely referring to what other people try to do, there is a whole list of dos and don'ts.


And I don't read much Marx being a thicko single mum.

Yeh. Fair enough. Sure you could read Marx if you wanted to, and with profit, anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

You obviously have a plan Pickers. Hows about posting it up?

Yes. I have lots of plans but don't divulge them simply on the say-so of some never-was no-hoper on the interweb.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Yes. I have lots of plans but don't divulge them simply on the say-so of some never-was on the interweb.

Yes, thats as good a way as any of admitting you don’t have one.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, thats as good a way as any of admitting you don’t have one.

it's as good a way as any of not posting it on the internet.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Yeh. Fair enough. Sure you could read Marx if you wanted to, and with profit, anyway.

I did a fair bit of Marx in college but I tend to spend what little time I have with my son now and I make sure I get Fuck loads of sleep lest my post natal terror is triggered again.


I do believe anyone that demands YOU JUST READ BOOKS has a poor concept of time limitations many people face.

Thankfully I know urban, and it's clever, concise posters, cheers guys!!!!!!

 

[Pickman's model]

I did a fair bit of Marx in college but I tend to spend what little time I have with my son now and I make sure I get Fuck loads of sleep lest my post natal terror is triggered again.


I do believe anyone that demands YOU JUST READ BOOKS has a poor concept of time limitations many people face.

Thankfully I know urban, and it's clever, concise posters, cheers guys!!!!!!

I'm not demanding you read books. I'm not demanding you read Marx. I'm not even suggesting you either read Marx or anything else. I was responding to your being thick bit, as you didn't come across as stupid.