Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Smangus]

Let him get the hounding he deserves instead. I don't think he's the honour to stand by his former statement and leave anyway

Remind me please where do I like?

 

[Pickman's model]

Remind me please where do I like?

Tory Death Spiral

 

[danny la rouge]

Presumably his work is unpaid. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to extract surplus value from his labour, but it’s plausible that a charity or non-profit is too scared to stop him from turning up and using their IT facilities, and setting up his campbed in the meeting room, and bathing in the kitchen sink.

And that's your politics right there. Jesus.

 

[Smangus]

Tory Death Spiral

Ta think I got the right one.

 

[redsquirrel]

Leaving aside the the 'posh' claim, butchers is completely right that there has been a whole load of support for neo-liberal assumptions on this thread (and in P&P in general in recent times).

You've had people arguing for economics as a neutral measure, talking about 'economic damage', you've had people reducing freedom of movement to the legal rights granted by an institution that pays for concentration camps and utters not a word about the ethnic cleansing of Roma, you've had people talking about the importance of free trade and trade agreements, you've had immigration promoted based on the CBI line, its required to keep the NHS/farming/hospitality sector running, with the accompanying (either explicit or implicit) because British workers won't do these jobs!

 

[Smangus]

Good to partake in another referendum......

 

[Silas Loom]

And that's your politics right there. Jesus.

The point was absolutely a personal one rather than a political one and was intended to reinforce that suggestion w/r/t BA.

I guess that point was made unsuccessfully though, and it’s riled not just his chums, but some people whose opinion I respect. So I probably allowed my dislike of the man to overstep boundaries. The post was clearly misjudged.

 

[Smangus]

So I probably allowed my dislike of the man to overstep boundaries. The post was clearly misjudged.

Will you do the decent thing and apologise then?

 

[Pickman's model]

The point was absolutely a personal one rather than a political one and was intended to reinforce that suggestion w/r/t BA.

I guess that point was made unsuccessfully though, and it’s riled not just his chums, but some people whose opinion I respect. So I probably allowed my dislike of the man to overstep boundaries. The post was clearly misjudged.

Oh your point came across clearly my sweet. You couldn't have made your nefandous politics clearer if you'd tried.

 

[redsquirrel]

The point was absolutely a personal one rather than a political one

Rubbish, it might have been a personal insult directed at butchers but it was absolutely shot through with your horrible politics.

 

[J Ed]

A thought, does May's capitulation signal a potential re-opening of political space to the right of the present government? Electorally, if UKIP or a UKIP type formation started to take votes off the Tories again then it would worsen the government's precarious electoral position.

 

[butchersapron]

Thread's improved no end after that intervention. Great.

Shall we cross over the road?

 

[Winot]

A thought, does May's capitulation signal a potential re-opening of political space to the right of the present government? Electorally, if UKIP or a UKIP type formation started to take votes off the Tories again then it would worsen the government's precarious electoral position.

I assumed that was what Gove’s rather odd intervention was about - an appeal to the right of the Tory party.

 

[danny la rouge]

The point was absolutely a personal one rather than a political one and was intended to reinforce that suggestion w/r/t BA.

I guess that point was made unsuccessfully though, and it’s riled not just his chums, but some people whose opinion I respect. So I probably allowed my dislike of the man to overstep boundaries. The post was clearly misjudged.

You don't have to like butcherapron, but your chosen insults did rather give away more than you probably intended about yourself and your values.

 

[danny la rouge]

A thought, does May's capitulation signal a potential re-opening of political space to the right of the present government? Electorally, if UKIP or a UKIP type formation started to take votes off the Tories again then it would worsen the government's precarious electoral position.

I think it probably does. Much depends of course on where the negotiations go next, but on the strength of this document (and reactions to it), May's certainly got a constituency she isn't carrying with her at the moment.

 

[Teaboy]

A thought, does May's capitulation signal a potential re-opening of political space to the right of the present government? Electorally, if UKIP or a UKIP type formation started to take votes off the Tories again then it would worsen the government's precarious electoral position.

I think so. I also think a tory schism is becoming likely, closely followed by a Labour one. Strange days.

 

[butchersapron]

A thought, does May's capitulation signal a potential re-opening of political space to the right of the present government? Electorally, if UKIP or a UKIP type formation started to take votes off the Tories again then it would worsen the government's precarious electoral position.

It can only happen from their right. Their right has 1 serious option. UKIP. That's the only electoral game.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think so. I also think a tory schism is becoming likely, closely followed by a Labour one. Strange days.

and to think the referendum was supposed to put the tory europe issue to bed for a generation or two. All going well....

 

[Silas Loom]

Will you do the decent thing and apologise then?

Okay. I apologise sincerely and in serious, appalled contrition to anyone (other than BA) who is in difficult circumstances and felt that my post mocked or insulted them. I'm surprised that it could be read that way, but if you were offended, I'm very sorry. I would apologise in a rather more neutral way to anyone who took offence on behalf of an assumed group of this kind. I'd apologise very grudgingly to anyone who was genuinely offended by the post because they have some degree of affection for BA.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

He's saying the politics of people like you and lbj drove brexit. And how right he is.

Certainly successive UK governments slavish devotion to the EU neoliberal cause drove brexit but articulate responses from across the political spectrum from a cross section of posters whose reasons for their posted content are as diverse as their personal circumstances makes for a much more interesting thread than coded incoherent ramblings.

 

[Silas Loom]

You don't have to like butcherapron, but your chosen insults did rather give away more than you probably intended about yourself and your values.

I dislike him enormously. I just re-read his post and thought how I'd react if anyone else had posted it. I had to concede that I would automatically have given anyone else the benefit of the doubt and been concerned about their circumstances, and sympathetic. Even if it was Pickmans, weird thought experiment as that was.

Anyway, going out to walk the dog now, and hopefully we can all get back to serious discussion of Brexit.

 

[Teaboy]

and to think the referendum was supposed to put the tory europe issue to bed for a generation or two. All going well....

I remember a fair few 'lets fuck this shit up' comments on the brexit thread before the vote. Achievement unlocked.

 

[J Ed]

Okay. I apologise sincerely and in serious, appalled contrition to anyone (other than BA) who is in difficult circumstances and felt that my post mocked or insulted them. I'm surprised that it could be read that way, but if you were offended, I'm very sorry. I would apologise in a rather more neutral way to anyone who took offence on behalf of an assumed group of this kind. I'd apologise very grudgingly to anyone who was genuinely offended by the post because they have some degree of affection for BA.

I don't know why anyone would bother to do this, why write this non-apology? You are making things even worse.

 

[Pickman's model]

Certainly successive UK governments slavish devotion to the EU neoliberal cause drove brexit but articulate responses from across the political spectrum from a cross section of posters whose reasons for their posted content are as diverse as their personal circumstances makes for a much more interesting thread than coded incoherent ramblings.

Yeh. You have it the wrong way round, that it was slavish devotion to the nl EU cause - the EU of course responds to its member states' agendas as transmitted through the council of ministers. The EU was slavishly devoted to the nl agenda of member states such as the UK.

 

[Knotted]

I dislike him enormously. I just re-read his post and thought how I'd react if anyone else had posted it. I had to concede that I would automatically have given anyone else the benefit of the doubt and been concerned about their circumstances, and sympathetic. Even if it was Pickmans, weird thought experiment as that was.

Anyway, going out to walk the dog now, and hopefully we can all get back to serious discussion of Brexit.

He wasn't looking for your sympathy.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

This is a good thread that has evolved over it’s run time as poster’s opinions might have altered over the evolving period of brexit. One has to hope it can get back on track.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Yeh. You have it the wrong way round, that it was slavish devotion to the nl EU cause - the EU of course responds to its member states' agendas as transmitted through the council of ministers. The EU was slavishly devoted to the nl agenda of member states such as the UK.

Well yes of course. It works either way around but the result is the same. If brexit results in Corbyn lead Labour at next GE then brexit will have been worth it.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is a good thread that has evolved over it’s run time as poster’s opinions might have altered over the evolving period of brexit. One has to hope it can get back on track.

Tbh it's holed below the waterline when some posters think EU neoliberalism originated in Brussels rather than London, Berlin etc

 

[Pickman's model]

Well yes of course. It works either way around but the result is the same. If brexit results in Corbyn lead Labour at next GE then brexit will have been worth it.

Corbyn led labour in power will be more noted for its continuities with the may administration than its changes from today's government

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Corbyn led labour in power will be more noted for its continuities with the may administration than its changes from today's government

We will have to wait & see. Obviously politics must always be about the art of the possible but with the Tories as only alternative I will be certainly be happy to see a majority Corbyn led Labour government come to power & see what sort of a fist they make of it. If they build council houses that will be an improvement.