IRA worship

[Divisive Cotton]

Indeed. That's what I was talking about.

Like the wee boys in Warrington. They weren't "in the wrong place at the wrong time"; the bombs were.

I have no problem with the IRA fighting a war. But blowing up kids isn't fighting a war; it's murdering kids. And the people who do that are scum, pure and simple.

As are the powerfreak arsewipes who rule working class areas of the North with an iron fist, or whatever the fuck it is they think they're doing. They are worker-murderers, threatening or using violence against their "own" people. That makes them class traitors of the worst variety.

What do you mean by 'using violence against their own people'? For what reason did they do this? I'm not being pedantic here, I'm just trying to get to the root of your argument.

 

[pilchardman]

For what reason did they do this?

Because they are authoritarian gun nuts.

 

[revol68]

don't forget the IRA were the first to bring human bombs to the UK. Only these fuckers didn't have the decency to blow themselves up, they strapped the bomb to some poor fucker and sent him in.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

More to the point, the IRA have never been about equal rights for catholics, they are not the armed continuation of the civil rights movement since it was beaten off the street. The provo's never had anytime for the civil rights movement, and equal rights was never their concern. Their concern was a United Ireland, everything else was just tactical, womens rights, trendy anti imperialist rhetoric.

Look at how Sinn Fein actually voted on abortion, on pfi/ppp.

Much of the ranks of the IRA were filled with people, like Gerry Adams, who had been active within and had grown disillusioned with the civil rights movement.

As for PFI/PPP

From their 2005 General Election manifesto:

Role of the private sector
Sinn Fein believes that healthcare should be provided on the basis of need rather than ability to pay, and will continue to oppose public-private partnerships and PFI within health and social services.

The PFI issue with Sinn Fein has now been resolved. They are against it.

http://sinnfein.ie/policies/document/151/1

Until such time as the public services of Ireland are invigorated and returned to the public sector, Sinn Féin will actively promote and participate in public campaigns to end PFI/PPP in coalition with like-minded organisations and political parties, including trade unions, professional associations and progressive public interest groups.

As for their their anti-abortion views here's an interview with Daisy Miles, a member of Sinn Fein's Executive Committee here :

Within Sinn Fein, women have confronted this issue over the years going back to 1985 when the party’s position was that we were "totally opposed" to abortion. We have now moved through a educative process–and I think this is always the important issue: the process by which people arrive at positions– that started within the party in Derry in 1985. We tried to broaden out and engage people in dialogue and discussion about the issues, obviously trying to lead them to a pro-choice position. Ultimately, my argument always is that if we are arguing about self-determination for the Irish people, we also have to look at self-determination for women because women are part of the Irish people; in fact, we’re 51% of the Irish people! (That’s a little statistic I like to throw out now and then.) Women are in the majority, so therefore our self-determination must be considered. The root of women’s self-determination, I believe, is fertility control and reproductive rights.

Sinn Fein’s current position basically represents a very global acceptance of abortion if you read it quite carefully. And I think that’s a position now that those of us who support women’s reproductive choice within Sinn Fein–and we’re a big group of us, and we’re not just women, there are a lot men who are pro-choice as well–are very happy with that position.

As you can see it is an ongoing debate, but a debate that is being won.

 

[revol68]

oh yloou silly little boy, as if what the Shinners do and say is the same.

They implemente PFI in northern ireland and wil no doubt do so again. They closed down maternity wards and on abortion most of the spineless fucks abstained cos they wouldn't wanna annoy the Mary fuckers.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Because they are authoritarian gun nuts.

So they were all just psychopathic gun nuts? Hmmm.... didn't demonstrate this irrationality when they recently gave up their guns and activity.

I presume the violence you are talking about were those directed against drug dealers and joyriders. In the 90s there was a groundswell of support for action against these anti-working class elements. Action was taken. Many drug dealers were seriously injured and killed. Good. The problem was, on a number of occassions they got the wrong person, hence, the establishment of Restorative Justice Schemes. This is called learning from your mistakes and having a just and workable system to a problem that needs to be resolved.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

oh yloou silly little boy, as if what the Shinners do and say is the same.

They implemente PFI in northern ireland and wil no doubt do so again. They closed down maternity wards and on abortion most of the spineless fucks abstained cos they wouldn't wanna annoy the Mary fuckers.

Jesus, I present you evidence but you still repeat the same opinion.

The point I am making about the Sinn Fein position on abortion is that it is a demoractic organistion with many involved who are completely for the woman's right to chose. They day will come when their argument wins out.

 

[cathal marcs]

I didn't really wat to get into this thread as I found it pretty crude to be honest. Although on the issue of abortion the IRSP were the first party in Ireland to support womens rights in choosing if they want to continue a pregnancy as far as I am aware. If you think Sinn Fein will get their head out of the sand and make a clear stance on womens fundamental rights to choose if they want an abortion you will be waiting longer than the GFA will bring around a united Ireland.

Secondly I agree with Revol68s stance on Sinn Fein on the use of PFI. It was only a few months back Adams and Garfunkel left a meeting with Dublin buisnessmen talking the need for 'pragmatic' politics.

 

[oisleep]

as much as i hate to admit, i agree with most of revol's points about the IRA, however, i always find this piece from red action as particulary inspiring

But these delegations had an importance far beyond a simple expression of solidarity and were neither about revolutionary tourism nor being part of the provos supporters club, criticisms that have been levelled at RA members at times from various sects. No, these delegations gave us the opportunity of demonstrating to our new members and supporters, within a hour of jumping onto a plane, exactly how our own ruling class behave when the gloves come off. Any illusions individuals might have had about the benign nature of the ruling establishment were often banished by the end of a single weekend.
Another eminently practical benefit in accepting the use and need for armed struggle meant that any ethical reservations about our own use of violence for political ends, ie militant anti-fascism, was automatically legitimised.
It also gave RA the chance to establish personal contacts amongst members of the most militant and politically advanced working class in Western Europe. Again, it was against their commitment we as members of the British working class had an opportunity to gauge our own political and personal resolve. Though not initially designed as such, in time the Belfast trip` became a filter for our own membership.
Not surprisingly, some, faced with the brutal reality of the conflict, gained a personal insight into the inadequacy of their previous understanding of the words `revolutionary struggle`. And so, having returned safely to the mainland we never physically laid eyes on them again!
Equally the politics of other individuals led to rather different conclusions and a number of high profile arrests and convictions in the early 1990`s earned the Red Action brand additional notoriety from a slack jawed Left and unwarranted attention from the state.
Through the Belfast trips, RA members gained sufficient intimacy to allow us to learn immense and invaluable political lessons from both the Republican and Republican Socialist Movements, while retaining enough room to be able to objectively analyse and learn from their failures as well as their successes, vital lessons that we are now applying to our own struggles outside of the Irish six counties.

http://www.redaction.org/archives/history.html

 

[revol68]

fuck i hate you!

 

[pilchardman]

I presume the violence you are talking about were those directed against drug dealers and joyriders.

You presume wrong. And - what's more - I knew you'd say that.

Shove your head up the Provo's arses if you want to. It's your life.

 

[oisleep]

fuck i hate you!

have a carrot

 

[Divisive Cotton]

You presume wrong. And - what's more - I knew you'd say that.

Shove your head up the Provo's arses if you want to. It's your life.

So what are you talking about then? Or is this some sort guessing game you're playing with us here?

 

[pilchardman]

So what are you talking about then?

Have you ever been to the North? I'm only asking because you seem determined not to understand what I'm talking about, despite my having spelled it out in a previous post. I'm talking about the way the IRA polices the communities it says it's protecting with the use and threat of violence. And if you think that fear only applies to joy-riders (about whom we can have another thread if you like, when you can ask people whether the death penalty is good enough for them. Since you appear to be of the Daily Mail school on this issue) and drug dealers, then your grasp of reality s pretty poor.

You may think an iron fist is a good idea. Perhaps you think the Masses are too stupid to be trusted. Maybe you think you need a firm hand yourself. That's your problem, not mine. I don't get a hard-on for masked psychopaths myself. But, hey, it's your life.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Have you ever been to the North? I'm only asking because you seem determined not to understand what I'm talking about, despite my having spelled it out in a previous post. I'm talking about the way the IRA polices the communities it says it's protecting with the use and threat of violence. And if you think that fear only applies to joy-riders (about whom we can have another thread if you like, when you can ask people whether the death penalty is good enough for them. Since you appear to be of the Daily Mail school on this issue) and drug dealers, then your grasp of reality s pretty poor.

You may think an iron fist is a good idea. Perhaps you think the Masses are too stupid to be trusted. Maybe you think you need a firm hand yourself. That's your problem, not mine. I don't get a hard-on for masked psychopaths myself. But, hey, it's your life.

I'm not entirely against drug dealers being shot dead, admittedly. At least, I won't mourne their passing, and to equate that with right-wing Daily Mailism is nonsense. But I've already made the point about the changing strategy of the Republican Movement to anti-social behaviour in post number 66.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not entirely against drug dealers being shot dead, admittedly.

What do you mean by "drug dealers"? Someone sorting their mates with a few pills? Someone dealing a bit of weed to supplement their benefit cheque? Someone supporting their habit by dealing a bit of brown? Someone supplying a club or party with speed, e's and coke? Crack dealers who don't use themselves? Heroin importers? What?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

What do you mean by "drug dealers"? Someone sorting their mates with a few pills? Someone dealing a bit of weed to supplement their benefit cheque? Someone supporting their habit by dealing a bit of brown? Someone supplying a club or party with speed, e's and coke? Crack dealers who don't use themselves? Heroin importers? What?

Hard drugs

 

[Blagsta]

Hard drugs

What do you mean by "hard drugs"? As a term in itself, its meaningless.

 

[In Bloom]

Hard drugs

Fucks sake, don't be too specific

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Fucks sake, don't be too specific

Heroin and crack

 

[Blagsta]

Heroin and crack

So cocaine is OK? Is washing up your own coke into rocks OK? Or would I get shot? What about dealers supporting their own habit? Would you shoot them too?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

So cocaine is OK? Is washing up your own coke into rocks OK? Or would I get shot? What about dealers supporting their own habit? Would you shoot them too?

This is a diversion from the debate - my personal hit list isn't the topic of dicussion.

 

[Blagsta]

This is a diversion from the debate - my personal hit list isn't the topic of dicussion.

No, I think it rather is. You're the one supporting the rule of the gun, so justify it. Would you shoot someone supporting their own habit? Is powder coke OK, but crack not? What about speed?

 

[oisleep]

 

[gurrier]

I'm not entirely against drug dealers being shot dead, admittedly. At least, I won't mourne their passing, and to equate that with right-wing Daily Mailism is nonsense. But I've already made the point about the changing strategy of the Republican Movement to anti-social behaviour in post number 66.

Joyriders?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Jesus, I present you evidence but you still repeat the same opinion.

No, you are missing his point.

Sinn Fein have *always* been against privatisation in words. That didn't stop them becoming some of the biggest privatisers in Northern Irish history when they got their grubby mitts on the Ministerial portfolios. That isn't something they have repudiated. When challenged on it they give exactly the same guff about "hard choices" that every right wing party in power has ever done. And when they next get the chance they will do exactly the same.

 

[pilchardman]

This is a diversion from the debate - my personal hit list isn't the topic of dicussion.

No, that's very much the debate. Very much.

So far we've got: heroin and crack dealers get shot. Also joyriders. We'll deal with the peripheral issues like ethics and evidence later, let's stick to the list for now.

OK, what about cocaine. Did we get a death sentence for that one yet? Other class A drugs? Want to list them?

 

[Pickman's model]

That is not only untrue but couldn't be further from the truth. On the very few occasions Ireland was discussed in Class War (certainly in London), those who supported the IRA were very much in the minority.

Like I said earlier, liberation struggles all over the world had pretty much uncritical support. Mention the IRA and everyone starts squealing!

john x

yeh. like i'm imagining what i read in the paper...

i never said that it was a majority tradition, just that there have been and continue to be members of cw who support the ira, just as there are members of cw who oppose them (which shouldn't be news to someone who claims to have been involved in cwf, but there you go).

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Socialist Resistance has been running a good series on the history of Sinn Fein - www.socialistresistance.net - the last one, part seven covering the period since 1970s, is on page 20 of the October issue.

The series was written by Socialist Democracy, Irish Section of the Fourth International, and the originals can be found under
www.socialistdemocracy.org - follow 'Most Recent Articles' and '100 years of Sinn Fein' Parts 1-7.


There are certainly no leftist rose tinted spectacles about the provos here, and the Irish FI section has always remained independent of them and free to criticise. While I would agree there had been some uncritical mutterings about them by some leftists and trotskyists, particularly in the early 1970s, the formal statements and positions of the Fourth International in particular have always opposed individual terrorism and nationalism. Unfortunately a few loonies - notably the self-styled Revolutionary Communist Group (RCG) who were very noisy in the 1970s and 1980s - came out with stupid slogans.

BTW the IRSP weren't the first party in Ireland to support fighting for abortion - I have a friend who was in the Irish section of the FI from about 1969 and he assures me they always agitated for abortion rights, in line with the general position of the FI. I can't remember what the section was called at that time though, I think it was the RMG, Revolutionary Marxist Group, though it later became the Movement for a Socialist Republic (MSR), fused with People's Democracy and is called Socialist Democracy today.

 

[Pickman's model]

icepick spotter.