IPCC report 2021; analysis, discussion, and are we fucked?

[Artaxerxes]

So XR are planning another round of pissing off the working class by camping in the road. This time, they say, indefinitely.

They've learnt nothing

Or is it learned?

If your protests not pissing people off your doing it wrong.

I do think XR need to have a good re-think about their strategy and tactics though. Much of what they have done is raise awareness (even if it has has other goals as well) which has worked pretty well. But is there a need to just shout about climate stuff and how bad it'll be now? Just reading the poorly titled How to Blow Up a Pipeline by Andreas Malm that was recommended to me, and that talks about that. Passivity, politeness, and stupid dressing up will not work.

But if they block roads or access to Heathrow that upsets the working class as mentioned in the post above?

What's a protest movement to do...

 

[lazythursday]

I do think XR need to have a good re-think about their strategy and tactics though. Much of what they have done is raise awareness (even if it has has other goals as well) which has worked pretty well. But is there a need to just shout about climate stuff and how bad it'll be now? Just reading the poorly titled How to Blow Up a Pipeline by Andreas Malm that was recommended to me, and the book talks about how passivity, politeness, and stupid dressing up will not work, and much more is needed.

I thought they were pivoting to key (and perhaps more realistic) demands - eg “Stop all new fossil fuel investment immediately“ and targeting actions accordingly, which seems like an improvement over last time.

I want to read that book.

 

[Artaxerxes]

USA's got this at least.

 

[LDC]

Genuine question. What kind of extra parliamentary action can we take on climate change which a) has some actual impact, b) won't be crushed by the state, and c) won't piss off (some of) the working class?

No more fossil fuel exploration and extraction or airport construction. No more internal UK flights. That kind of thing.

But with mass forceful collective action with full financial support for all those impacted in job losses with some kind of green furlough scheme.

 

[lazythursday]

No more fossil fuel exploration and extraction or airport construction. No more internal UK flights. That kind of thing.

But with mass forceful collective action with full financial support for all those impacted in job losses with some kind of green furlough scheme.

but those are demands, rather than tactics / actions. Some people seem to have decided that any climate related protest that causes inconvenience is out of order, cos the working class, or something.

 

[glitch hiker]

Well we don't know what the protests are, do we? I thought most of it was focused on the City of London, so not necessarily 'pissing off the working class' as such.

I've not been happy with a lot of what XR have done but I'm at a bit of a loss for what the alternative is. They are the only show on the road right now. Hopefully they have learned from some of the criticism.

They have said they intend to do what they did before in respect of blocking roads and camping down.

 

[LDC]

If your protests not pissing people off your doing it wrong.


But if they block roads or access to Heathrow that upsets the working class as mentioned in the post above?

What's a protest movement to do...

Pissing people off is a red herring. Don't be looking for things that don't piss people off. Look for things that work. I think the complicated reality is there will be plenty of people that resist some of the changes needed. But it'll be very like the pandemic and the lockdown/restrictions. People's happiness and willingness to go along with changes will be directly connected to how much they're negatively impacted by them.

 

[glitch hiker]

Genuine question. What kind of extra parliamentary action can we take on climate change which a) has some actual impact, b) won't be crushed by the state, and c) won't piss off (some of) the working class?

I'd have no problem if they occupied banks or the offices of polluters. But stopping people's commutes just causes aggravation and sows resentment.

As to your question, there's probably nothing. But I guess the issue is whether you can achieve some awareness or consciousness raising and force a tipping point

 

[lazythursday]

They have said they intend to do what they did before in respect of blocking roads and camping down.

I don't think blocking roads in the City is going to affect more than a teeny tiny portion of the country's working class.

 

[LDC]

but those are demands, rather than tactics / actions. Some people seem to have decided that any climate related protest that causes inconvenience is out of order, cos the working class, or something.

Yeah but they lead to a strategy maybe in targeting those kind of things. I do think getting hung up on the pissing people off/inconvenience thing is a bit weird. But it is easy to get stuck on something like road blocking as it feels confrontational etc. and lose sight of what's the best stuff to do.

Fuck blocking roads tbh, I think it's a tactic that is very past its use by date for this stuff.

 

[glitch hiker]

If your protests not pissing people off your doing it wrong.


But if they block roads or access to Heathrow that upsets the working class as mentioned in the post above?

What's a protest movement to do...

I think it depends who youre pissing off. If it's the Tories and their oil baron allies then that's fine. If it's the people you're trying to win over who are barely holding it together then that's problematic. XR have repeatedly shown a tone deaf attitude to the latter. In fact I have heard credible reports that, following their last such proitest, they all packed up their stuff in 4x4's and drove off. That's not going to play well.

 

[lazythursday]

Looking at the website (and I heard one of the organisers on Newsnight a couple of days ago) I don't think there is any concrete information to suggest that blocking roads is the main action, I think that is being extrapolated from very scant info. Perhaps it is, but I can't see evidence for that.

 

[LDC]

They have said they intend to do what they did before in respect of blocking roads and camping down.

Where have they said this?

 

[LDC]

In fact I have heard credible reports that, following their last such proitest, they all packed up their stuff in 4x4's and drove off. That's not going to play well.

Give over, that's Daily Mail level shit.

 

[glitch hiker]

Where have they said this?

Newsnight

 

[LDC]

The gilets jaunes 'End of the month, end of the world: same perpetrators, same fight' is an slogan and attitude XR would be better to emulate rather than the bollocks like the Animal Rebellion stuff they like so much.

That Clare Farrell on Newsnight is a fucking political abomination.

 

[maomao]

I'm fine with 90+% of their tactics. They could pick their tube stations a bit better but I don't see what else they can do apart from repeatedly shut down London.

 

[danny la rouge]

While XR have done a great job in raising consciousness, and while they are absolutely right that this is an existential crisis in the real sense of the words, what they tend to get wrong is their finger-pointy individual responsibility vibe. People generally feel they’re being preached to by self-righteous killjoys. The message seems to be green austerity and guilt.

That may be unfair, but it’s what comes across. They really need to make it more clear that the culprit is capitalism. But they need to do so in a less vanguardist way. They need to bring people with them by actually involving people. Educate by organising. Agitate by educating. And listen to people’s concerns and centre working class people’s vision for a green future.

At the moment they come across as rather disconnected, earnest, middle class ascetics.

 

[Dystopiary]

On a related note I predict a shift of some of the covid conspiracy types to anti-climate change stuff, fitting it into their whole 'social control of the masses' narrative. Already seen someone saying the flooding in N. Europe was some 'elite weather control technology' thing.

Yep, there was already an overlap. If only these people could see how useful they are to the very system they claim to be against.

 

[lazythursday]

Where in that does she say the main focus is blocking roads? She talks about multiple, rolling occupations, and that there will be disruptive protest. She doesn't say 'We will block all the roads for weeks'. Unless that is at the end, I got bored.

 

[glitch hiker]

I'm fine with 90+% of their tactics. They could pick their tube stations a bit better but I don't see what else they can do apart from repeatedly shut down London.

But they aren't shutting down London. If they managed to do that I'd be impressed and would certainly revisit my opinion. Instead they are just inconveniencing the people they need on side. I doubt BP are going to be affected.

I dont' say this for fun. I have many issues with XR but their members are largely good and decent people. I just think this is wrong headed. They continually refuse to see capitalism for what it is

 

[cloudyday]

And listen to people’s concerns and centre working class people’s vision for a green future.

a future where class division still exists is no future, green or otherwise.

 

[danny la rouge]

Did you mean to ask something, cloudyday ?

 

[danny la rouge]

Did you mean to ask something, cloudyday ?

Ah, I see your edit. Yes, I agree.

 

[bimble]

Some people, daily mail etc, will just always take pleasure in being pissed off at anybody who spends their time doing actions , because why aren't they all at work. Same as it ever was.
I don't know if the target of the protest makes much difference to that contingent and reckon their pissed off-ness is probably not worth worrying about much at all.

It does seem to me that the awareness raising time is done now, if you're not aware by now that's a choice. So thats kind of a waste of time, as a general intention.
That little survey i posted up earlier, with across the board in the UK now, after this summer, all ages & all political labels included, the vast majority saying no change now is scarier than making the changes to reduce warming, i found that really encouraging.

 

[maomao]

But they aren't shutting down London. If they managed to do that I'd be impressed and would certainly revisit my opinion. Instead they are just inconveniencing the people they need on side. I doubt BP are going to be affected.

I dont' say this for fun. I have many issues with XR but their members are largely good and decent people. I just think this is wrong headed. They continually refuse to see capitalism for what it is

So what should they do then? Personally I reckon the working classes at Stratford station (of whom I was one when they protested there) will be even more pissed off when they're swimming to work. Climate change is going to cause an awful lot of inconvenience.

 

[LDC]

So what should they do then? Personally I reckon the working classes at Stratford station (of whom I was one when they protested there) will be even more pissed off when they're swimming to work. Climate change is going to cause an awful lot of inconvenience.

On some level I agree, pissing people off is a bit inevitable, and it shouldn't be worried about too much. The problem for me with that (and other similar) actions is that like much of the road blocking it creates attention and makes people aware of the situation, but not much more. But one of the serious down sides is that it gives the impression of finger pointing moralism (don't drive, don't fly, don't eat meat, don't go to work...) and that allows division to be very easily exacerbated between XR and others.

The root problem is that XR want a revolution (even if they don't say or know that) and to get that you need some level of violence and militancy combined with some control of productive and material forces (transport, power generation, food production and distribution, etc.) which XR have no involvement with, so it leaves them as shouty activists trying to create chaos and disruption as their source of power, which is very limited.

 

[danny la rouge]

it gives the impression of finger pointing moralism (don't drive, don't fly, don't eat meat, don't go to work...) and that allows division to be very easily exacerbated between XR and others.

Exactly.

 

[lazythursday]

I really can't be the only person though who has reached a point where I feel I have to do something, even if that means risking arrest, and XR have to channel that somehow, and I'm not sure of the best way to do that without the risk of it looking like moralism. Perhaps relentlessly targeting fossil fuel companies and the institutions that fund them or take their money.

(I'm not actually going to do anything particularly because I'm not much wanting to up sticks and go and hang around central London indefinitely, but the urge is there...)

 

[maomao]

On some level I agree, pissing people off is a bit inevitable, and it shouldn't be worried about too much. The problem for me with that (and other similar) actions is that like much of the road blocking it creates attention and makes people aware of the situation, but not much more. But one of the serious down sides is that it gives the impression of finger pointing moralism (don't drive, don't fly, don't eat meat, don't go to work...) and that allows division to be very easily exacerbated between XR and others.

The root problem is that XR want a revolution (even if they don't say or know that) and to get that you need some level of violence and militancy combined with some control of productive and material forces (transport, power generation, food production and distribution, etc.) which XR have no involvement with, so it leaves them as shouty activists trying to create chaos and disruption as their source of power, which is very limited.

Well they need about fifty times as many people as they've got to pull off a revolution (which won't be an anti-capitalist) one so all they can do is turn up and cause as much disruption as they can and hope it will grow. They'll grow faster this way than meetings and paper sales. If they're bigger this time then they're onto something.

They currently seem the best option for saving the world. I'm not completely happy with the demands but it's an improvement on continuing blindly forward with the vicious kleptocracy that's being created at the moment.