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International Women's Day

Any man's commitment to feminism is going to be imperfect: patriarchy is so ingrained that most of the expressions of male privilege are carried out unconsciously.

It's important then for men committed to the values of feminism to be reflective and open to criticism when they get something wrong. It doesn't make you a bad feminist to fuck up occasionally. It does make you a bad feminist to deny and bluster when you do fuck up.
 
Out of interest how would you describe a male who believes in feminist ideals?

Pro-feminist? Feminist ally?

As it goes, I'm personally not precious over a male regarding themselves as a feminist. As Vintage Paw upthread, it's more about what their feminism means and their actions, as feminism can mean many things (whether it's liberal feminism, socialist/Marxist feminism, radical feminism, etc.) After all, plenty of Tory/pro-capitalist women consider themselves 'feminist' (but that's another rant).
 
Any man's commitment to feminism is going to be imperfect: patriarchy is so ingrained that most of the expressions of male privilege are carried out unconsciously.

It's important then for men committed to the values of feminism to be reflective and open to criticism when they get something wrong. It doesn't make you a bad feminist to fuck up occasionally. It does make you a bad feminist to deny and bluster when you do fuck up.

Isn't this sort of sentiment part of the same thing? I mean... we're all brought up in the same society, women are just as much a part of the perpetuation of patriarchy as men are, we all swim around in this stuff with our mouths open gulping in societies conceptions and internalizing it all. This idea above portrays the men as the doers of patriarchy, the agents, the people what do or do not do out in the world with sleeves rolled up getting stuck in and fucking it all up half the time, while the women recline all passive and innately above that sort of thing, Venus-like, sublime and apart and subject to mans vigorous feminsim/not-feminism. It is in my opinion a continuation of the same old bollocks.
 
This idea above portrays the men as the doers of patriarchy, the agents, the people what do or do not do out in the world with sleeves rolled up getting stuck in and fucking it all up half the time, while the women recline all passive and innately above that sort of thing, Venus-like, sublime and apart and subject to mans vigorous feminsim/not-feminism.
I don't think it portrays that at all. Could you explain how it does?
 
I don't think it portrays that at all. Could you explain how it does?

I'm not sure now, I've hit reply on your post but think it was the wrong one, I have Exploding Slimeface Disease at the moment and am off my head on cough sweets and Lemsip. Perhaps I was arguing with a Cold & Flu hallucination caused by those weird little headspins you get when you've eaten to many Halls Extra Strength. As you were.
 
If it helps, I had written that any woman's commitment to feminism is also imperfect in the post originally, but deleted it before posting 'cause I didn't think it was necessary...
 
If it helps, I had written that any woman's commitment to feminism is also imperfect in the post originally, but deleted it before posting 'cause I didn't think it was necessary...

Maybe it was necessary, after all "feminism" isn't stored in that chromosome that women have but men don't. I've see examples of women enforcing patriarchy on other women, not even sure if 'patriarchy' is the right word when people are made to feel disgusting because they don't shave off their body hair or don't wear make-up or think non-FGM girls will grow up to be sluts etc.
 
That's not what you said though. So, your identifying with women - what does that mean then? It's possible to find macho behaviour abhorrent, or not like football and cars and still be a man and/or identify as one?
Well, recent science suggests that whatever gender identity is its not to do with what we think of as gendered traits. There may be a link, but its not a strong one.

And because we're all strongly required to wedge ourselves into two boxes I would assume that how one woman identifies will not necessarily be identical to any other woman. It's trying to cram a broad spectrum into a single slot.

The traits we think of as gendered are probably almost completely construct. Women are pouring into engineering now that have been given the opportunity - maybe in the future civil engineering will be seen as a "women's thing". Or not. Maybe we'll finally grow up as a species.

I'd say I'm particularly sensitive to all that nonsense at the moment because some people latch onto any gender non-conforming behaviour of mine to try to "prove" I'm actually a man or indeed gender conforming behavour to prove that I'm trying to hard; and oddly at the same time many of these people hold that gender is entirely some sort of myth.
 
Well, recent science suggests that whatever gender identity is its not to do with what we think of as gendered traits. There may be a link, but its not a strong one.

And because we're all strongly required to wedge ourselves into two boxes I would assume that how one woman identifies will not necessarily be identical to any other woman. It's trying to cram a broad spectrum into a single slot.

The traits we think of as gendered are probably almost completely construct. Women are pouring into engineering now that have been given the opportunity - maybe in the future civil engineering will be seen as a "women's thing". Or not. Maybe we'll finally grow up as a species.

I'd say I'm particularly sensitive to all that nonsense at the moment because some people latch onto any gender non-conforming behaviour of mine to try to "prove" I'm actually a man or indeed gender conforming behavour to prove that I'm trying to hard; and oddly at the same time many of these people hold that gender is entirely some sort of myth.

That monthly cycle thing that women go on about, lot of fuss over nothing right?
 
Women are pouring into engineering now that have been given the opportunity - maybe in the future civil engineering will be seen as a "women's thing". Or not. Maybe we'll finally grow up as a species.

I was surprised in Canada to see so many women working on highway maintenance teams digging up roads and stuff. I don't think I have ever seen one single woman employed on roadworks in the UK.
 
I was surprised in Canada to see so many women working on highway maintenance teams digging up roads and stuff. I don't think I have ever seen one single woman employed on roadworks in the UK.
I have a friend in Canada who works in engineering, but she has a terrible time with the attitudes of the blokes she works with. Shes very good at her work, gets zero support from the men she works with and is seriously about to leave the industry cos her position has become inviable.
In my company I'd say situation in civils are getting close to 50-50 among engineers, but other jobs are still very male dominated.
I dropped out of engineering cos I couldn't hack the macho attitudes and would not be accepted now I'm fairly certain.
 
I'd say I'm particularly sensitive to all that nonsense at the moment because some people latch onto any gender non-conforming behaviour of mine to try to "prove" I'm actually a man or indeed gender conforming behavour to prove that I'm trying to hard; and oddly at the same time many of these people hold that gender is entirely some sort of myth.

Yep, appreciate that - especially as hostile people will use that to try and de-gender a trans person ('not trying hard enough to 'pass', they're rilly a man', etc). As I've said a number of times on such threads, trans people sometimes just can't win when on the receiving end of cis-sexism.
 
I'm always very wary of posting on these threads - took me most of today to pluck up the nerve to say something and then I was shot down in flames by a response designed to make me doubt my very identity. I know most people don;t understand why trans people are so sensitive, its probably because many of us spend out whole life trying to work out why we don't fit, why we feel we're living the wrong life, and massively in denial about anything that might suggest we're transgender. Then when we manage to pluck up the courage, we're still filled with doubt and guilt and what if this isn;t who I am? and am I just being an idiot here and making a fool of myself and everyone who loves me?
Gradually, bit by bit, we move beyond all the self hate and begin to have faith in ourselves - if we're lucky. But nasty jibes like the ones above do genuinely break open the doubts again. I spent most of Xmas 2014 afraid to leave my house because i no longer had faith in my own womanhood, after foolishly reading TERF websites. But I wanted to understand. I discuss all this with my cis female friends and none of them can relate to the whole reductive you are your genitals viewpoint either. Luckily I'm supported but I've already had a text from a couple of people asking if I'm OK so I think I must have had a bit of a wobble. Anyway, so sorry, last thing I ever want is to make everything about me, I just wish I could make my point without my gender identity being attacked.
ETA I hope most people can also see that there is no good way for.me to argue with people who think I'm a man, because everything I say is interpreted as if it's another missive from the patriarchy. These people don't discuss with you, they bait, try to provoke a response or try to grind you down. If you don't believe trans people then that's your choice but wanting us to argue with the people who are trying to destroy us will never work.
 
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Maybe it was necessary, after all "feminism" isn't stored in that chromosome that women have but men don't. I've see examples of women enforcing patriarchy on other women, not even sure if 'patriarchy' is the right word when people are made to feel disgusting because they don't shave off their body hair or don't wear make-up or think non-FGM girls will grow up to be sluts etc.


internalised misogyny.
 
I saw a thing a while back, talking about the science that shows identifiable differences between male and female brains. Rather than saying "HA! told you there's a biological difference" it looked at how we know brains to be plastic, and how brains change due to the things we do -- they're not set in stone when we come out of the womb, they develop over time. Specifically it looked at how boys are encouraged to engage in certain types of play, and girls in others. Encouraged not just through one specific thing, like a teacher saying "you're a boy, you go play with that" but rather a whole host of things from familial reinforcement, branding and marketing, peer pressure, etc. It's never just one thing, it's a huge messy web of many.

Anyway, boys were seen to be doing more things like block work, and girls were doing more stuff around dolls. (This is broadly - there will have been overlap, differences, outliers, etc, as well as other activities, I'm just mentioning two in particular.) As a result, brains will develop in relation to those tasks and activities. It's not hard to see how from that we get the idea that boys are good with spatial awareness and girls are good at creativity. They well might be, generally - but because their brains were trained to be like that. But that tendency towards being good at certain things gets used as essentialist proof that boys and girls are biologically hardwired to be different from the get-go.

We don't understand the extent to which -- to use simplistic terms but ones that everyone understands -- nature and nurture interact, but it becomes increasingly clear year after year that it's not a simple either/or, but a complex interaction between the two.

It's not enough for feminists to say "gender is a construct" because it oftentimes ignores the biological reality of brains seemingly being wired in different ways within gendered groups. And likewise it's disingenuous to say "boys and girls are inherently different, the science says so" because it ignores the feedback loop of nature-nurture influencing each other.

I understand (don't agree with, but understand) the fear some feminists have around trans issues because of how it makes 'gender is a construct' far more difficult to talk about, especially when that has been the primary argument against sexism. But that isn't solved by telling trans people they're wrong, or by holing yourself up in some essentialist notion of gender -- because not only are you throwing an entire group of people under the bus, you're misrepresenting the science, and you're undermining your own bloody arguments about gender construction to begin with (gender is a construct; I as a woman have a unique experience that men can't understand; my body codes me in a certain way and I am disadvantaged in society because of that; there's nothing inherent about being a woman; I am a woman and you are not).

Far better to be open about how there's a lot we don't understand, and find better ways to tackle sexism that embrace everyone rather than clinging desperately to one argument that doesn't actually fully realise the ways biology and society interact and constitute each other. Even if it means having to do the very hard work of developing a more nuanced and complex understanding of something that has worked quite well for feminism so far.
 
And I mean, I get it. It's easy to say "gender is a construct." Because it is. But it's also not as simple as that.

If you're having an argument with some wankstain who's telling you "women are like this, men are better" then "gender is a construct" is a fine thing to say. But if you're going to talk on a deeper level about how and why it's a construct you're going to have to deal with a lot of messy and complicated ideas. It's not easy to do that in the heat of the moment when some twat at work says women are shit drivers or when some cockwomble on the internet says men are more suited for science than women. But that's no reason to switch your brain off and sink into it as a comfortable mantra that if only you could just say it enough times would make sexism go away.
 
And, again, I get it.

It's like some Hillary Clinton supporters, who feel prickly at any attack on her because she's a woman, and women are always attacked. That's all true. And I understand the defensiveness. I've felt it myself plenty of times, and still do. You don't want to give a single inch to an argument that might undermine all the hard work, for fear it emboldens and makes it easier to attack women in the future.

But when you do that you're being dishonest. We have to approach it intelligently. It's possible to highlight and fight against sexism without defending or falling foul of things that harm others. It just might require more work.
 
Well, recent science suggests that whatever gender identity is its not to do with what we think of as gendered traits. There may be a link, but its not a strong one.

And because we're all strongly required to wedge ourselves into two boxes I would assume that how one woman identifies will not necessarily be identical to any other woman. It's trying to cram a broad spectrum into a single slot.

The traits we think of as gendered are probably almost completely construct. Women are pouring into engineering now that have been given the opportunity - maybe in the future civil engineering will be seen as a "women's thing". Or not. Maybe we'll finally grow up as a species.

I'd say I'm particularly sensitive to all that nonsense at the moment because some people latch onto any gender non-conforming behaviour of mine to try to "prove" I'm actually a man or indeed gender conforming behavour to prove that I'm trying to hard; and oddly at the same time many of these people hold that gender is entirely some sort of myth.

I'd have been a lot more comfortable growing up if i'd been aware of all this, and if being a female hadn't come with a whole barrel of enforcement of femininity. loathing the bullshit arround the enforcement of femininity left me often wondering if i was supposed to have been a boy.

reading stuff like what jack monroe wrote about being trans brought up a lot of those memories, but in a good way. a realisation that i was who i was supposed to be. the problem was and never had been who i was. it was about what other people had expected me to be. and that i could be who i was without following those expectations. that i can express that however I want, blokes shirts and suit jackets one day and flowery 1950s dresses the next.

and the point behind all this is that if i can be a woman and reject all that shit, why the fuck is all that shit being applied to you.

when that includes allpying it to you by people who claim to reject femininity as defining womanhood, then it's even more infuriating. but also does nicely show how much they are prepared to use arguments that won't have applied to themselves as evidence to attack you. does prove that their shit is nothing to do with what a woman is, but their right to gain power by victimising someone else.

and fuck that.
 
AuntiStella you made a comment about 'women are now pouring into engineering ' and I think that while some branches such as civil and electrical have a significant percentage of women entrants, other branches still fall woefully short. For example, only 5% of chartered engineers who are IMechE members are women, and of the 30 or so candidates I've assessed over the past two years, 1 has been a woman. I'm the only woman mechanical engineer in a department of 60.
 
Out of interest how would you describe a male who believes in feminist ideals? Forgetting the whole sex worker thing for a moment just a general question.

a fucking man who respects women enough to know it ain't their place to vocalise their shit. when men give it mnerrrrr I'm a feminist it becomes about them, theres no reason any man should feel the need to announce (and it's always announced) that he is a feminist, ohhhh isn't he brave, look at the man supporting womens rights even though his own may judge him harshly, men use words when their actions are shit. I ain't buying what any of em are selling.

man tells me he's a feminist and I'm supposed to respect him because of it? favour, do me one.

when the 'male face of feminist porn' is shown up as a rapist then wtf is going on quite frankly.
 
a fucking man who respects women enough to know it ain't their place to vocalise their shit. when men give it mnerrrrr I'm a feminist it becomes about them, theres no reason any man should feel the need to announce (and it's always announced) that he is a feminist, ohhhh isn't he brave, look at the man supporting womens rights even though his own may judge him harshly, men use words when their actions are shit. I ain't buying what any of em are selling.

man tells me he's a feminist and I'm supposed to respect him because of it? favour, do me one.

when the 'male face of feminist porn' is shown up as a rapist then wtf is going on quite frankly.

I don't care what your gender is & I don't care whether you respect me or not; that's a hateful and generalising post.
 
a fucking man who respects women enough to know it ain't their place to vocalise their shit. when men give it mnerrrrr I'm a feminist it becomes about them, theres no reason any man should feel the need to announce (and it's always announced) that he is a feminist, ohhhh isn't he brave, look at the man supporting womens rights even though his own may judge him harshly, men use words when their actions are shit. I ain't buying what any of em are selling.

man tells me he's a feminist and I'm supposed to respect him because of it? favour, do me one.

when the 'male face of feminist porn' is shown up as a rapist then wtf is going on quite frankly.

If you believe that women should have the same rights and have full legal, social, political etc equality as men then you are by definition a feminist.

I'm a male and I consider myself a feminist but I'm not all up in your face about it. I'm a feminist because I believe in those things not because I'm on some crusade it's just what I am because I believe in those things. I would never label myself or define myself as a feminist but I am one by definition.

And I think you need to take a look at your own beliefs because you're making some unbelievably stupid sweeping generalisations there.
 
AuntiStella you made a comment about 'women are now pouring into engineering ' and I think that while some branches such as civil and electrical have a significant percentage of women entrants, other branches still fall woefully short. For example, only 5% of chartered engineers who are IMechE members are women, and of the 30 or so candidates I've assessed over the past two years, 1 has been a woman. I'm the only woman mechanical engineer in a department of 60.
I don't disagree. I don't want to give the impression everything is fine I just wanted to say that 1. Jobs that were considered male jobs are being done just as successfully by women where they have the opportunity and 2. Things are changing, but even with the numbers going up massively as they are it'll be long time before it tilts the balance across the board.
In my company its notable that where we have taken gender equality seriously now for about a decade, not just paying lip service, things have improved a lot. In civil engineering it's nearly at parity. However in other branches of engineering I've not seen so much change. Though I was pleased to see many women among the engineering apprentices this year. Remember I've been around since the dark ages and can remember when women in engineering was almost unthinkable. We didn't even have women's toilets or facilities on the underground when I started.
When I did my engineering degree the female intake on my course was about 5%, and that's if you include me. It was noticeably a lot more male than other courses on offer at Thames Poly.
 
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