Inside, against and beyond the Labour Party: Thoughts for the Left post-GE

[HoratioCuthbert]

I don't think citing ingrained racism as the cause of breakdown in labour vote in working class towns when working class urban areas held is helpful or remotely true. Where there is racism (and other expressions of hostility to cultural changes etc) it's a consequence. It's also bollocks to engage in one upmanship about whether a or b are more working class, or to conflate that with levels of poverty.

It's a different experience of class and poverty, the 'welsh pit towns' cited in that facebook post (ignoring that the valleys were labour holds btw, the former industrial areas of wales that fell had coal mining but never as the all encompassing industry, but ok by the by) have had generations of decline, breakdown in communities, and loss of purpose and local identity, sense of being ignored, blamed, mocked, and all of this under labour MPs, labour councils, in the 'welsh pit towns' labour govt since 1997 (first westminster then cardiff bay post devolution), generational hopelessness with nobody to blame but these labour administrations and politicians.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Sorry mistake post, just wanted to say nail on head, can’t blame people for abandoning labour when labour has abandoned them for years.

 

[LDC]

Good thread btw, think this stuff is really useful to chat about, thanks all.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Weirdly just after Louis’ post I went to my mates house a couple of days ago, she’s been sat looking after her mum for the past two years but she’s now got a carer- to take up the slack for two hours on a Thursday. Anyway I drove my mate to the supermarket and then to a mutual friend of ours whose been off for ages due to having cancer, but she mentioned her house needed decorating and what we should do is form a gang and go round everyone’s house every month and do things that needed doing be it painting decorating or things putting in the loft, sort of thing. Just pick a time in the month and we all go round each other’s and do what needs to be done. I certainly need that I can’t get fuck all done on my own. Excellent and how’s that for synchronicity

 

[treelover]

I like that, and a few similar things I've seen.

What seems to me to be missing from that though is a narrative about how Labour might return actual jobs to these areas. The sort of jobs that have been lost - not necessarily the same but ones that pay well and you can potentially get without 2 degrees and an unpaid internship. Without that you're ultimately promising people a less shit situation a lot of the time - better community centres and support are important for sure but not enough.

That's an incredibly hard thing to achieve, I certainly don't know how you do it but I think it's necessary.

Green New Deal, wind turbines, insulation, conversions.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think there are some points worth considering , but overall I'm genuinely not sure.
I was interested in hearing other opinions , if anybody's inclined to comment.
For what it's worth DM comment is from me

I think the idea of two working classes. One in the cities: multi-culti, instinctively progressive and liberal and backing Labour, the other in the towns: white, aged, racist and plebeian right politically is both wrong and dangerous. The main proponents of it seem to be motivated by defending their own role in the disaster of the 13th December. That said there is an economic difference - money circulates through cities, work (even if it’s low paid and precarious) is available, there is a visible use for and obvious value to social and cultural capital. Many towns in the English and Welsh ‘rust belt’ are smashed. They are barely functioning. They are post post-industrial in nature. Those who can, get out. Those who can’t will live and die in these spaces

I think to suggest that race was a critical factor in the election is problematic as a) parties that wanted it to be a factor polled so badly their vote isn’t recorded and b) there isn’t a shred of evidence to support it.

Finally, I wonder where the sort of speculation and suggestion on your Facebook post takes us. What can it build? Where does it lead? What does it give us to work with?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I live in a small west-country town, with an ageing demographic. Kids that go to university (at least half) don’t come back. Those that don’t still often leave for work/excitement elsewhere. So Bristol, Brighton, London, Leeds etc get more than their fair share of young, lefty types. Where I am stays reactionary. The same must be happening elsewhere. How can we overcome that?

 

[treelover]

Amid defeat, remember – the left is more than Labour

Amid defeat, remember – the left is more than Labour | Gary Younge

As the left reflects on its priorities over the next few years, it is worth reassessing whether we have the balance right. Contrary to Tony Blair’s claim that the left turned Labour into a “glorified protest movement”, Labour actually turned the left into a glorified electoral machine. The thousands of people who canvassed in the cold and half-light over the past month were not there to wave placards in central London and preach to the converted, but to knock on doors in marginal constituencies and convert the waverers.

Gary Younge in the G, I think he is right here, even in cities the LP did not become the grass roots network many would have wanted.

 

[treelover]

I'm not knocking this approach as its better than doing f-all however its is all fine and dandy untill you look at the political composition of most Labour Councils and the fact that these 'Left in the Labour Party' activists will at some point come up against them. I also think that we are talking about a relatively small amount of Labour activists ,for example during the election in Barking and Rainham their blog says they had a core team composed of four people and the same seven to 15 people turning up to canvass daily. Then of course there is the issue are these campaigns community led, led by the Left, prompted/enabled by the left and to be frank in some areas what if the community is hostile/suspicious about campaigns that involve members of the same political party that is imposing the cuts.

Some of us already have

 

[treelover]

Some comments from post-election discussion on Facebook....

PBJ :
BAME voters yet again largely voted Labour, and here is the conundrum..Tottenham, Liverpool, Leeds, Bristol, Manchester, Sheffield , Coventry have pockets of poverty ...hell not just pockets fucking massive sacks of areas of poverty that are statistically on a par with an ex-pit town in Wales, a former steel or shipbuilding town....and yet these areas remained Labour.

The collapse of Labour reflects a disenchantment, an anger, a hopelessness that is both real, largely white and older and can skew racist. We should not beat about the bush on this. Largely city and large town areas that were and are mixed whether poor or not so poor didn't flock to the Tories.

We have a tremendous rift in ex-industrial northern and Welsh towns between a Labour party that for years assumed the vote, was in power locally overseeing the decline, where anger is or can be racialised. A Welsh pit village is not poorer than an estate in North Tottenham. Poverty alone is not enough to explain this, disempowerment when white in predominantly white and poor communities has the "benefit" of the illusory and false benefit of kicking down.

Get Brexit Done..is our Make America Great Again, it's a dog whistle to an age long xenophobia in a time of real despair. It is not however an illusion that cuts much ice to young poor multi ethnic parts of Britain. It is a very specific and white reaction

HL :
I think many BME communities have built new cultures and identifies in the UK. Whereas many white working class towns have been defined by a breakdown of identity and community after 20 years of de-industrialisation .

Even if you don't have much I think many migrant communities and families feel a big sense of pride in what they have achieved, because they often sacrificed a lot to come here and build new lives.

In small towns in the north and midlands, people had poverty for generations but they also had job security and a community identify that was inseparable from the pit/shipyard/docks/factory. Pride, solidarity and community are huge practical and psychological insulators to poverty and unfortunately a lot of that went. That's been replaced with a sense of loss, humiliation and anger.

Of course there's the racism that brings things into sharp focus. The Islamophobia muslims experience from the media and the harassment black young people get from the police. It develops your consciousness.

How do we rebuild class consciousness in small town northern England when that consciousness was based on actual industrial infrastructure? How do things seem a bit different in Scotland than they do here? I think the toxic British nationalism of the 70s and 80s was replaced in the 90s when football fans swapped the union flag for the St George's cross and that's how English nationalism became defined, by the racism and empire that had inspired versions of British nationalism before it. Whereas Scottish nationalism was intertwined with a largely social democratic movement for independence.

In the absence of red flags, union halls and Labour clubs the cultural void was filled with the common sense of nationalism and England's version was exclusive rather than the more civic Scottish form.

DM
Could the LP vote in big cities also be due to more middle class and student support ?
I reckon english football fans switched from union jack to george cross ( at least partly ) in response to growing support for independence in Scotland.

The Left in England have mostly avoided acknowledging any sense of a collective sense of working class cultural and political identities , specifically located in England.
Leaving that wide open for the Right to exploit

PBJ
Class as a concept is being race-washed, lets more accurately say, whitewashed.

Grimsby is working class.......Tottenham isnt ? Lewisham isnt ? nobody is rushing to listen more closely to the voices of Tower Hamlets, there will be no special infrastructure deals for housing estates in Walthamstow. This is insidious, but it will only grow.

Brexit was won by the tories crafting an unholy alliance of leafy tory villages and towns, rich places outside of big cities, white places by and large and the so-called left behind ex-industrial towns of Wales and the North - by and large that was not the large and multiracial cities.

What Johnson and Cummings are trying to do now is weld that alliance into permanence - straight from the Trump playbook - ex steelworkers in Pennsylvania cheered and attended in their thousands for Trump, ex industrial area after ex industrial area, Trump wasnt elected by Wall Street, and Johnson wasnt elected by the City of London. They are trying to forge a new normal - at the heart of this is whiteness.

The left cannot and must not fall into this trap, in effect it denies what class is and that is it is multiracial, multi identity and lives in cities and towns across the UK.

Is that a particurly focused FB page?

 

[ska invita]

You've both got Lisa very wrong. She isn't moving towards Spiked and she isn't endorsing Stewart.

She's shared more than one Spiked-related thing online before that Ive seen... she may not sign up but theres a degree of overlap there IME

 

[treelover]

I think the idea of two working classes. One in the cities: multi-culti, instinctively progressive and liberal and backing Labour, the other in the towns: white, aged, racist and plebeian right politically is both wrong and dangerous. The main proponents of it seem to be motivated by defending their own role in the disaster of the 13th December. That said there is an economic difference - money circulates through cities, work (even if it’s low paid and precarious) is available, there is a visible use for and obvious value to social and cultural capital. Many towns in the English and Welsh ‘rust belt’ are smashed. They are barely functioning. They are post post-industrial in nature. Those who can, get out. Those who can’t will live and die in these spaces

I think to suggest that race was a critical factor in the election is problematic as a) parties that wanted it to be a factor polled so badly their vote isn’t recorded and b) there isn’t a shred of evidence to support it.

Finally, I wonder where the sort of speculation and suggestion on your Facebook post takes us. What can it build? Where does it lead? What does it give us to work with?

Superb post.

 

[ska invita]

Very long piece by Salvage journal here ‘It’s in the Air, It’s in Your Bones’: Notes on an Aftermath - Salvage

Good postmortem (but over-wordy..>"enfloatage" ?)

Familiar with everything covered there but the bit about anti-semitism was new to me - particularly the bit they lifted off Twitter and expanded on, about the interaction of claims of anti-semitism and islamaphobia/nativism

Luke Pagarani, put it on a perspicacious and distressing Twitter thread:

The real charge against Corbyn is that he fundamentally believes that British/white lives are of equal value with the lives of others. Our opponents wouldn’t put it so bluntly but that is what it has always been about. That prioritisation of British lives must always be assumed. … It is impossible to defend Corbyn against this unspoken charge because it is clearly true. … I think this is also how the antisemitism scandal had such a big effect on people who don’t really care about antisemitism itself. Leaving aside all the people who do care about antisemitism for its own sake for a lot of people Corbyn’s association with antisemitism seems to represent his association with Islam, where Islam in turn comes to stand for the undifferentiated mass of humanity making a claim for equal eminence.

"perspicacious" Is it really necessary to talk like this? I'd like to share this piece with friends and family but phrases like "with all the lacunae in our understandings that would bespeak" are a massive put off.

And i definitely agree that " one lesson of this election might be that there was, in fact, no non-catastrophic option available " re Brexit. Fucked each and every which way IMO. And they go through the ways in that piece.

Which is all a derail from this thread.
---------------------------------------------

In regards the thread topic, one thought Ive got is that while the role of unpaid, unfunded, volunteer work in communities and campaigns is no doubt important, its already happening a lot - often not that visible and scrambling around in a firefighting role. Not necessarily directly relevant but I saw a stat that 15 million people in the UK volunteer once a month, and a lot more do less regularly.

I think the case that Labour activism has sucked all the life out of everything else isn't as true as people imagine. Lots of campaigning/support work continues, often propping up the collapsing welfare state.
How much more capacity for this is there really out there in peoples lives? More for sure, but I'd be wary of expecting that much more, and pinning all hope on that.

The weakest links IMO are where there is money and resources - and that's the unions and the Labour Party. And that feeds back in the fight over the political direction and culture of the party. I'm prepared to give the Corbyn-led LP a bly that they were too wrapped up in fighting off internal coups and then bogged down in the Brexit black hole to turn attention to revitalising the grassroots structures - CLPs, Labour clubs where they might still exist, supporting new members into useful activity all year round etc etc. That needs vision and a democratising agenda, which Labour leaders not only havent had but have been averse to.

Unions are also in my limited experience sitting on cash and not using it in anywhere near as effective a way as they should.
Im not involved in Labour Party nor unions so that's an impression gleaned for occasional run-ins.
Just maybe this election defeat might trigger a change in culture/action, particularly if pushed to do so.

 

[ska invita]

There's recently been the attempted relaunch of the Left Book Club. The original LBC of the 1930s and 40s was both self-education in a pre-comprehensive education system period, and social network. Supposedly they would put on all kinds of events beyond just the books

" By 1939 there were 57,000 members running 1200 reading groups. The huge popularity of the LBC had a powerful impact and is widely" credited with helping to bring about a shift in public opinion which led to Labour’s landslide victory after WW2.

I think the book club model is a good one - you can get a small group together fairly easily, you get to know one another, and you can use it as a base from which over time to engage in other activity. You can choose which books to read, you can mix up fiction and nonfiction, you can mix up difficulty levels. Its also a model that works anywhere geographically, even in relatively less populated places. You just need somewhere to meet, and if really short of a public space, people can take it in turns to meet in homes.

I think the LBC has about 30 groups around the country and growing, link>> Left Book Club - but its a relatively easy thing to start on your own. I gather the LBC can help in getting a new one off the ground.

 

[LDC]

Good postmortem (but over-wordy..>"enfloatage" ?)

Familiar with everything covered there but the bit about anti-semitism was new to me - particularly the bit they lifted off Twitter and expanded on, about the interaction of claims of anti-semitism and islamaphobia/nativism

"perspicacious" Is it really necessary to talk like this? I'd like to share this piece with friends and family but phrases like "with all the lacunae in our understandings that would bespeak" are a massive put off.

Yeah, it's bonkers the writing style. Most of them are literary types I think so it's not a surprise.

 

[ska invita]

I think to suggest that race was a critical factor in the election is problematic as a) parties that wanted it to be a factor polled so badly their vote isn’t recorded and b) there isn’t a shred of evidence to support it.

From what I saw The Tories polled very well, and they whistled plenty enough for xeneophobia and racism to be a factor. Some now sitting Tory MPs are still "under investigation" (don't hold your breath) for the most obviously outrageous comments made.

yes its wrong to say "this was all about race", or a "critical factor". But there are lots of things in play intersecting in complex ways. Fact is Johnson is an openly racist, sexist, homophobic prime minister - anyone who cared to see it coud see it - and werent put off by that to vote for him. I was expecting a fall in the Tory vote due to abstention, based on disgust of him. Dont think there was any sign of that.

You asked "Finally, I wonder where the sort of speculation and suggestion on your Facebook post takes us. What can it build? Where does it lead? What does it give us to work with?"

At the very least we must always firmly reject racism, sexism, homophobia - dont let BJ ever get away with being who he is, and let him forever be reminded of what hes written, said and published - and also I would add very positively maintain the line on internationalism and celebrating the multi-ethnic heritages of what it is to be British. Any imagined-as-strategic retreat/appeasment from this would be a disaster.

 

[ska invita]

Yeah, it's bonkers the writing style. Most of them are literary types I think so it's not a surprise.

No Im not surprised, but its so avoidable and so against the spirit/nature of the topic. Not a new problem I know.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

From what I saw The Tories polled very well, and they whistled plenty enough for xeneophobia and racism to be a factor. Some now sitting Tory MPs are still "under investigation" (don't hold your breath) for the most obviously outrageous comments made.

yes its wrong to say "this was all about race", or a "critical factor". But there are lots of things in play intersecting in complex ways. Fact is Johnson is an openly racist, sexist, homophobic prime minister - anyone who cared to see it coud see it - and werent put off by that to vote for him. I was expecting a fall in the Tory vote due to abstention, based on disgust of him. Dont think there was any sign of that.

You asked "Finally, I wonder where the sort of speculation and suggestion on your Facebook post takes us. What can it build? Where does it lead? What does it give us to work with?"

At the very least we must always firmly reject racism, sexism, homophobia - dont let BJ ever get away with being who he is, and let him forever be reminded of what hes written, said and published - and also I would add very positively maintain the line on internationalism and celebrating the multi-ethnic heritages of what it is to be British. Any imagined-as-strategic retreat/appeasment from this would be a disaster.

It's wrong to say 'this was all about race'. But it's also wrong to say 'this was nothing about race'. Pretty much the same as the referendum result really. Different people had different reasons for voting leave, but the end result was a victory to a particular form of racist and xenophobic English nationalism, as embodied by Nigel Farage. I think this was already clear at the time of the referendum, but it really was crystal clear by the time of this election, as Boris Johnson had very consciously turned himself into Farage by the end of his campaign. It was a strategic decision by Johnson not to back down or apologise for a single one of his racist/xenophobic/sexist/homophobic remarks.

So yes, in addition to extending the Green New Deal idea into a wider project that links social justice with environmental justice, it is crucial for Labour to continue to vigorously oppose many of the things that helped get Johnson elected, including his appeal to English nationalism. Fuck knows what's going to happen in the next few years. No doubt it will mostly be a case of firefighting and trying to hold on to stuff we still have as best we can. In the end, sure you want to win elections, but you have to stand up for what you think is right. Otherwise, what's the point in winning?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

She's shared more than one Spiked-related thing online before that Ive seen... she may not sign up but theres a degree of overlap there IME

There is a world of difference between agreeing with someone’s analysis of, say, identity politics and sharing their overall world view.

If you want to keep asserting that there is overlap then you’ll need to find some examples.

 

[ska invita]

It's wrong to say 'this was all about race'. But it's also wrong to say 'this was nothing about race'. Pretty much the same as the referendum result really. Different people had different reasons for voting leave, but the end result was a victory to a particular form of racist and xenophobic English nationalism, as embodied by Nigel Farage. I think this was already clear at the time of the referendum, but it really was crystal clear by the time of this election, as Boris Johnson had very consciously turned himself into Farage by the end of his campaign. It was a strategic decision by Johnson not to back down or apologise for a single one of his racist/xenophobic/sexist/homophobic remarks.

So yes, in addition to extending the Green New Deal idea into a wider project that links social justice with environmental justice, it is crucial for Labour to continue to vigorously oppose many of the things that helped get Johnson elected, including his appeal to English nationalism. Fuck knows what's going to happen in the next few years. No doubt it will mostly be a case of firefighting and trying to hold on to stuff we still have as best we can. In the end, sure you want to win elections, but you have to stand up for what you think is right. Otherwise, what's the point in winning?

Check out my post here
The 2019 General Election
...in case this is all getting a bit too derail

There is a world of difference between agreeing with someone’s analysis of, say, identity politics and sharing their overall world view.

If you want to keep asserting that there is overlap then you’ll need to find some examples.

Ive stopped looking at her online tbh and IM not going to go back over old posts - lets leave it there.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's wrong to say 'this was all about race'. But it's also wrong to say 'this was nothing about race'. Pretty much the same as the referendum result really. Different people had different reasons for voting leave, but the end result was a victory to a particular form of racist and xenophobic English nationalism, as embodied by Nigel Farage. I think this was already clear at the time of the referendum, but it really was crystal clear by the time of this election, as Boris Johnson had very consciously turned himself into Farage by the end of his campaign. It was a strategic decision by Johnson not to back down or apologise for a single one of his racist/xenophobic/sexist/homophobic remarks.

So yes, in addition to extending the Green New Deal idea into a wider project that links social justice with environmental justice, it is crucial for Labour to continue to vigorously oppose many of the things that helped get Johnson elected, including his appeal to English nationalism. Fuck knows what's going to happen in the next few years. No doubt it will mostly be a case of firefighting and trying to hold on to stuff we still have as best we can. In the end, sure you want to win elections, but you have to stand up for what you think is right. Otherwise, what's the point in winning?

ETA: you know what, forget it LBJ. We can have this debate elsewhere.

Let’s not detail this thread. It’s an important one

 

[brixtonscot]

I think the idea of two working classes. One in the cities: multi-culti, instinctively progressive and liberal and backing Labour, the other in the towns: white, aged, racist and plebeian right politically is both wrong and dangerous. .....

I think to suggest that race was a critical factor in the election is problematic as a) parties that wanted it to be a factor polled so badly their vote isn’t recorded and b) there isn’t a shred of evidence to support it.

Finally, I wonder where the sort of speculation and suggestion on your Facebook post takes us. What can it build? Where does it lead? What does it give us to work with?

I'm not suggesting there are two working classes , or that race or ethnicity was a critical factor....although possibly was a factor for some ( most of the comments I copied were not mine , tho I did think maybe there could be something in them )
Is there one homogenous working class ?
And in this particular case , for example , do any differing lived experiences , including ethnicity , between working class in big cities and smaller post industrial towns have impact on politics ?
And IF that's the case , maybe it could be of use to acknowledge that and look at those different experiences to overcome them progressively ......and not leave them to the Right to exploit negatively ?
And also I think the different political scenario in Scotland is of some relevance to consider.

 

[brixtonscot]

Is that a particurly focused FB page?

No

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Gary Younge in the G, I think he is right here, even in cities the LP did not become the grass roots network many would have wanted.

Read that Younge piece earlier and it's one of the best on the subject so far, though there's been so much tripe that's not quite the compliment it could be.

There's a broader point there about the Labour party co-opting left activists who had previously been moving towards acting independently. I remember a change in attitude when Corbyn was elected leader - a feeling that, instead of Labour being another group you had to fight and/or try to influence, now it might actually be on your side. That was a very refreshing and encouraging feeling but has its downsides.

 

[rekil]

Speaking of tripe, guess which opinion monger is behind this barrel load of it.

But the reality is that while Corbyn and Labour won all the arguments, they still lost the election. Because at the end of the day, enough people were fed up with being asked to be reasonable and decent and tolerant and to trust that a better society was possible. Enough people didn’t actually want to live in a country where immigrants and people of color and Jews and Muslims and gays and lesbians are equal to them, because in their secret hearts they don’t want to be told that those people are their equals.

There’s an incoherent violence to the British national character, running below the thin skin of decorum. It comes out when we drink and when we vote. We like to think of ourselves as sensible, but all it takes is two pints of cider or a slick dog-whistling psychopath to have us at our neighbor’s throats.

This election was a test-case for a new political playbook. The institutions of British democracy—Parliament, the press, the high courts—are all founded on the assumption that people will play vaguely by the rules and behave with basic decency. They are not equipped to handle naked, shameless dishonesty or upfront cheating, because on some level they don’t want to be.

 

[Hollis]

Got this via twitter... may be of interest.. .collection of documentaries on the Labour Party 1979-2010.

The Wilderness Years: Documentaries for a New Decade

 

[Steel Icarus]

Speaking of tripe, guess which opinion monger is behind this barrel load of it.

Has to be the Red Pen of Penny Red

 

[Steel Icarus]

In 2016, I filed some early copy about Hillary Clinton’s surely inevitable victory and somewhere in my mind I still think I might have jinxed it. I didn’t want to jinx this one. That’s how much I don’t want to be this angry. I would much rather believe that the outcome of this election had something to do with random chance than believe that millions of my fellow citizens allowed themselves to be lied to like this.

Ego in this though

 

[rekil]

Has to be the Red Pen of Penny Red

Verified liar ms #freeweev herself lecturing about racism and the sanctity of facts. The full version is only available to her patreon people.

 

[Proper Tidy]

There's recently been the attempted relaunch of the Left Book Club. The original LBC of the 1930s and 40s was both self-education in a pre-comprehensive education system period, and social network. Supposedly they would put on all kinds of events beyond just the books


I think the book club model is a good one - you can get a small group together fairly easily, you get to know one another, and you can use it as a base from which over time to engage in other activity. You can choose which books to read, you can mix up fiction and nonfiction, you can mix up difficulty levels. Its also a model that works anywhere geographically, even in relatively less populated places. You just need somewhere to meet, and if really short of a public space, people can take it in turns to meet in homes.

I think the LBC has about 30 groups around the country and growing, link>> Left Book Club - but its a relatively easy thing to start on your own. I gather the LBC can help in getting a new one off the ground.

I'll be honest, the context for left book clubs in the 1930s - when many working class people had no or little formal education and none had TVs or the internet - and the context today is a bit different. It would just be (and I have no doubt is) an obscure group for a few people already immersed in the left which offers no potential for the stuff that needs to happen to entrench a disruptive pro working class politics in working class areas