Inside, against and beyond the Labour Party: Thoughts for the Left post-GE

[Louis MacNeice]

"Thirdly there are celebrations; more parties not more Parties. We get together to celebrate all sorts of stuff, let's do more of it to celebrate our resilience, our sense of of fun, our strength and our cleverness. Again its about sharing, building mutual recognition/respect, about friendship and enjoyment; it is not a networking opportunity or some sort of hidden caucusing event."

Yes, but are the networks there, say in places like Grimsby?

I was thinking more that the networks needed building and these suggestions were aimed at that. Once people start talking and sharing and doing together, then the next set of challenges hove into view; challenges about organisational forms, leadership and accountability. But they are questions for the participants in the networks to answer, so let's think about how to establish and sustain those coming togethers. Apologies for the 1990s lefty language but that's one of the places I come from.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[treelover]

Didn't Lisa McKenzie get hounded off Twitter recently for suggesting Palestine wasn't in the top 5 concerns for most people? On Novara David Wearing went on and on and on about Yemen, another topic that I suspect isn't high on that list.

It is a bit of a problem for some bits of the left this fixation on struggles elsewhere to the exclusion of those closer to home. Even if only in the realm of pragmatism in that it makes you look a bit disconnected at best/mad at worst to those outside the activist bubble.

CLP's are a place you can be internationalist, etc, but it shouldn't be the priorities, have to remember most members now are quite affluent, my branch chair lives in the biggest house in the area, they can empathise but can't know, they should value their wc members more.

btw, if we can see that things like shopping list manifestos, are not a good thing/vote loser, why didn't the leadership, I think John let his ideology go ahead of his political instincts.

 

[killer b]

Didn't Lisa McKenzie get hounded off Twitter recently for suggesting Palestine wasn't in the top 5 concerns for most people?

No, she didn't. She attacked a student occupation that was explicitly defending a Palestinian student, and was rightly handed her arse.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

But they are questions for the participants in the networks to answer, so let's think about how to establish and sustain those coming togethers.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Sustaining this type of work is essential. That means that is needs to be very micro initially. It means that the level of commitment needs to be sustainable for individuals and finally it needs to be collectively owned (to keep 'takeovers' and to share the work out)

 

[Shechemite]

Left(ish) ideas were popular across the political spectrum. Adherents to the 'anti-imperialism of fools' are not, nor are conspiraloons.

Voters will happily vote for value, what they won't vote for is some desperate loon flinging free around like a monkey throws shit.

Hence the resurgence of Glasman et al

 

[killer b]

btw, if we can see that things like shopping list manifestos, are not a good thing/vote loser, why didn't the leadership.

because it was a vote winner last time?

 

[Shechemite]

On a practical note, is the IWCA still around in Blackbird Leys?

 

[LDC]

No, she didn't. She attacked a student occupation that was explicitly defending a Palestinian student, and was rightly handed her arse.

OK that wasn't the story or fallout I read or was told. Cheers for the correction.

 

[Shechemite]

McKenzie is a little too keen to demonstrate her ‘anti-IDpol’ credentials.

(Whilst happy to pal around with conspiraloons and be referred to as working class aristocracy. English irony i guess)

 

[treelover]

She seems slowly to be shifting towards the Spiked axis, which would be a shame.

Seems to be endorsing Stewart for Mayor as well, can see her doing a John Bird.

 

[Shechemite]

She seems slowly to be shifting towards the Spiked axis, which would be a shame.

Seems to be endorsing Stewart for Mayor as well, can see her doing a John Bird.

A true working class heroine

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You've both got Lisa very wrong. She isn't moving towards Spiked and she isn't endorsing Stewart.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I can see three ways of drawing together.

Firstly there is the simple sharing of experiences/stories both on line and face to face; not shared with a view to coming to some definitive stance/some line of demarcation...just shared to hear, to take away and to reflect on.

Secondly there is joint practical activity; the physically getting together to get something done (not bringing a banner and message of solidarity on a demonstration...we all know how to do that). Here I'm thinking more along the lines of a reciprocal agreement to help decorate a flat in one place in return for assistance in bringing a play area back up to scratch. Something where people get to know and trust each other and achieve a genuinely useful outcome.

Thirdly there are celebrations; more parties not more Parties. We get together to celebrate all sorts of stuff, let's do more of it to celebrate our resilience, our sense of of fun, our strength and our cleverness. Again its about sharing, building mutual recognition/respect, about friendship and enjoyment; it is not a networking opportunity or some sort of hidden caucusing event.

Thanks Smokeandsteam for getting me to write some of this down as I realise it has been spinning round in my head in fragments for quite a while now.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Brilliant

 

[treelover]

Tories remove disability and health data consent rights – on first day as new Gov. #ESA65B #ESA50 #ESA1 #UC50
Tories remove disability and health data consent rights – on first day as new Gov.

Maybe this is the first battle of the new dispensation, won't hold my breath.

 

[chilango]

Didn't Lisa McKenzie get hounded off Twitter recently for suggesting Palestine wasn't in the top 5 concerns for most people? On Novara David Wearing went on and on and on about Yemen, another topic that I suspect isn't high on that list.

It is a bit of a problem for some bits of the left this fixation on struggles elsewhere to the exclusion of those closer to home. Even if only in the realm of pragmatism in that it makes you look a bit disconnected at best/mad at worst to those outside the activist bubble.

cf. Rojava

or, mea culpa, Chiapas.

 

[Shechemite]

Corbynism ain’t dead comrades

 

[LDC]

cf. Rojava

or, mea culpa, Chiapas.

Those things always were much more the activist left though right? Nobody expected anyone else to be that interested or engaged with them I think or tried to spend time telling them they should be. I had some involvement in the former, if I'm honest partly due to the dearth of things here that seemed to be going anywhere. And it's much the same now, I want to find good projects to be involved with now, but where the fuck are they?

 

[chilango]

Those things always were much more the activist left though right? Nobody expected anyone else to be that interested or engaged with them I think or tried to spend time telling them they should be. I had some involvement in the former, if I'm honest partly due to the dearth of things here that seemed to be going anywhere. And it's much the same now, I want to find good projects to be involved with now, but where the fuck are they?

Yeah. I guess my point was that we're just as susceptible to the seduction of distant struggle.

 

[treelover]

Bit weird, but lots of groups like Acorn seem to be remobilsing/re-energising, new members, campaigns, etc.

to a degree, i think Chiapas was a positive.

 

[LDC]

Bit weird, but lots of groups like Acorn seem to be remobilsing/re-energising, new members, campaigns, etc.

to a degree, i think Chiapas was a positive.

Yeah, Acorn seem to have had a surge of members. They're quite active in the city where I live, although mostly it's students and activists doing 'social work' activism in areas they don't live in. I don't mean that as a criticism, just an observation. They do make noises about being about more than housing but it's hard to see them making that leap practically. butchersapron they're active in Bristol aren't they? Any thoughts?

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, Acorn seem to have had a surge of members. They're quite active in the city where I live, although mostly it's students and activists doing 'social work' activism in areas they don't live in. I don't mean that as a criticism, just an observation. They do make noises about being about more than housing but it's hard to see them making that leap practically. butchersapron they're active in Bristol aren't they? Any thoughts?

Poss later when i have more time. I just wanted to quickly post this which struck me the other week when reading it (One Man's Terrorist: A Political history of the IRA - Daniel Finn):

 

[ignatious]

That sort of proactive constituency work would go a long way to winning back the respect of some of the working class voters lost to the tories, but it doesn’t solve the whole issue; the Tories are even less embedded in working class areas than Labour and yet they still got the numbers.

The left is going to have to acknowledge that decades of Conservatism and its cultural soldiers has caused a seismic shift in the outlook and aspirations of the working class. There is a world beyond homelessness and foodbanks that Corbynism not only failed to engage with, but seems to have actively repelled.

Whatever and whoever comes next needs to connect with people who do not see themselves as helplessly disadvantaged, and feel patronised whenever a politician who earns a lot more than they do tells them that they are.

This is the 5th richest country on earth. Most people are doing ok. Some are doing very well and some are doing very badly, usually through no fault of their own. You have to at least pay lip service to that part of society who your main focus is not on. This is where the pragmatism of the Tories wins every time; they flirt with the Right by talking about immigration and they flirt with the centre by talking about one-nationism. Their core, meanwhile, is rock solid.

 

[Pickman's model]

That sort of proactive constituency work would go a long way to winning back the respect of some of the working class voters lost to the tories, but it doesn’t solve the whole issue; the Tories are even less embedded in working class areas than Labour and yet they still got the numbers.

The left is going to have to acknowledge that decades of Conservatism and its cultural soldiers has caused a seismic shift in the outlook and aspirations of the working class. There is a world beyond homelessness and foodbanks that Corbynism not only failed to engage with, but seems to have actively repelled.

Whatever and whoever comes next needs to connect with people who do not see themselves as helplessly disadvantaged, and feel patronised whenever a politician who earns a lot more than they do tells them that they are.

This is the 5th richest country on earth. Most people are doing ok. Some are doing very well and some are doing very badly, usually through no fault of their own. You have to at least pay lip service to that part of society who your main focus is not on. This is where the pragmatism of the Tories wins every time; they flirt with the Right by talking about immigration and they flirt with the centre by talking about one-nationism. Their core, meanwhile, is rock solid.

i wonder where the uk sits in terms of richest countries when you strip the city out of the equation

e2a: the city of london generates about 17% of the uk's economy. knock that out (as you may following the departure of the uk from the eu) and i'm sure the uk is not only not number 5 but possibly not in the top 10

 

[LDC]

The left is going to have to acknowledge that decades of Conservatism and its cultural soldiers has caused a seismic shift in the outlook and aspirations of the working class. There is a world beyond homelessness and foodbanks that Corbynism not only failed to engage with, but seems to have actively repelled.

I think this is a critical question to deal with. If the left thinks the class starts and ends with foodbanks and universal credit we're fucked.

 

[ignatious]

i wonder where the uk sits in terms of richest countries when you strip the city out of the equation

e2a: the city of london generates about 17% of the uk's economy. knock that out (as you may following the departure of the uk from the eu) and i'm sure the uk is not only not number 5 but possibly not in the top 10

Quite possibly, yup. It’s also possible that the City is actually holding back the UK as a whole (as suggested here The finance curse: how the outsized power of the City of London makes Britain poorer) which is not to negate your point, but It does reinforce the perception that even when Labour could make an argument for a different type of economy that could appeal to the aspirations of people in a positive way, they are unable or unwilling to do so.

 

[Pickman's model]

Quite possibly, yup. It’s also possible that the City is actually holding back the UK as a whole (as suggested here The finance curse: how the outsized power of the City of London makes Britain poorer) which is not to negate your point, but It does reinforce the perception that even when Labour could make an argument for a different type of economy that could appeal to the aspirations of people in a positive way, they are unable or unwilling to do so.

i think one thing which hasn't been sufficiently highlighted is that regardless of the size of the economy, much of it is doing a great deal more for people in other countries than it is for people here - the way so much infrastructure and utilities has been sold off and great amounts of money go for example to edf (france) and deutschebahn in germany - or of course to toyota and so on

if things changed, revenue from such things staying in britain could more greatly benefit communities around the country rather than making fat pigs fatter in other countries.

 

[ignatious]

if things changed, revenue from such things staying in britain could more greatly benefit communities around the country rather than making fat pigs fatter in other countries.

The whole shooting match is a ‘trickle-up and flood-out’ racket, most people would accept that intuitively I think. The problem for the Left is that not enough people care because they are seduced by the ‘competition’ model, and because the argument for an alternative has not been made beyond ‘let’s stop them from doing that’. Ok, but then what? Without that alternative, and with things being so atomised by uncertainty and fear, people are just going to stick with the devil they know and hope for a few extra crumbs to come their way.

 

[Pickman's model]

The whole shooting match is a ‘trickle-up and flood-out’ racket, most people would accept that intuitively I think. The problem for the Left is that not enough people care because they are seduced by the ‘competition’ model, and because the argument for an alternative has not been made beyond ‘let’s stop them from doing that’. Ok, but then what? Without that alternative, and with things being so atomised by uncertainty and fear, people are just going to stick with the devil they know and hope for a few extra crumbs to come their way.

let's leave labour to ponder

 

[Shechemite]

I think this is a critical question to deal with. If the left thinks the class starts and ends with foodbanks and universal credit we're fucked.

Yeah but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water

 

[treelover]

I think this is a critical question to deal with. If the left thinks the class starts and ends with foodbanks and universal credit we're fucked.

Er, the leadership might have spoke about FB's and UC, but UC, BT, etc, haven't been the focus of the wider left, in fact there really hasn't been a mass mobilisation on a large scale on basic issues like cuts, since 2012 TUC march and then before that The Poll Tax, this is imo, where the left lost its way.

I agree with you to a point, you have to bring the comfortably off, the C2's doing well, etc, but should never ever forget the former above.