Inside, against and beyond the Labour Party: Thoughts for the Left post-GE

[Sasaferrato]

Ok boomer (as the kids are wont to say).

Wash your hands and pocket the cash, whilst sneering at those at least trying for a better world.

'Pocket the cash'? What cash?

Whereas your aspirations may be noble, surely you realise that they are completely unattainable? To get anywhere along your road, you first have to convince people that what you want is reasonable. Secondly, you have to persuade people to vote for you.

The twin Marxist buffoons have just been thoroughly humped by one of the most odious PMs I've seen in my life. Can you not see that if Corbyn cannot beat Johnson, the hard left is going nowhere? This should have been a Labour victory... ask yourself why it wasn't.

There were a number of factors, but from reading the reports in the Guardian from people who were canvassing, Corbyn was the major reason for Labour's loss.

Extremist politics don't fly in Britain.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So, although you said the article was deluded, your "if you are a Labour Party member" comment clearly shows you either didn't read it or understood fuckall, you balloon.

Look cunt features, knock off the 'ad hom'. I was polite to you, and expect the same. Now go and fuck yourself, or, preferably, be polite.

 

[Serge Forward]

I bet you say that to all the boys

 

[Sasaferrato]

I bet you say that to all the boys

 

[LDC]

Very good piece here about the rural/urban age demographic in relation to the type of long term organizing that's been mentioned lots...

The left’s generation crisis: How can we grow without seeds?

 

[krink]

yep, the "hard left" has won fuck all as i sit here on my paid holiday in a social housing scheme taking my free medications.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

yep, the "hard left" has won fuck all as i sit here on my paid holiday in a social housing scheme taking my free medications.

Bastards!

Cheers, onwards and upwards

 

[Serge Forward]

The above ACG article I linked to dropped off the website, so it's now a dead link. Here's the new link: Corbynism after Corbyn: Bankruptcy of Electoralism – Anarchist Communist Group

 

[treelover]

We have all given significant periods of our lives to the Labour movement, most recently as MPs and candidates in the general election. We have been horrified by the damage that Tory government austerity has wreaked in our communities, crippling our NHS, starving our struggling schools and transport networks, normalising street sleeping and failing to keep our streets safe. Yet sadly, when it came to polling day, Labour was led to its biggest defeat since 1935. We lost seats in every region and nation with a swing against us in every social class – with the biggest swing against us from the poorest people.

Mary Creagh, former MP for Wakefield, Emma Reynolds, former MP for Wolverhampton North East, Anna Turley, former MP for Redcar, Dr Paul Williams, former MP for Stockton South, Gerard Killen, former MP for Rutherglen and Hamilton West, Martin Whitfield, former MP for East Lothian, Mary Wimbury, Labour candidate for Wrexham, Sheila Gilmore, Labour candidate for Edinburgh East, Ashley Dalton, Labour candidate for Rochford and Southend East, Kate Watson, Labour candidate for Glasgow East, Phil Wilson, former MP for Sedgefield

Stand up for Labour’s record in office | Letters

letter in the Observer, interesting to know which of them abstained on the 2015 welfare reform bill.

 

[Wilf]

Here's Rebecca LB's pitch:
We can take the Labour party back into power. Here’s how | Rebecca Long-Bailey
She mentions community and working class several times, but there's a touch of Eric Morecambe's 'all the right notes but in the wrong order'. No real sense of a different notion of what a political party might be - a shift yes, towards the working class - but about communicating and representing. Not getting the notion of breaching the walls of the party, to go even part way towards becoming a social movement. What happens if 'communities' don't want what is on offer? What happens if the local community want to organise against the local labour council, will she support them? She mentions unions a few times, but what about the people who are not union members etc,

Realise it looks like I'm trying to hold her up against an anarcho communist model and have been doing the same in my criticisms of Corbyn/Momentum. But I had a feeling when Corbyn was elected along the lines of 'surely he's not just going to offer up some kind of warmed up less than Bennite social democracy, surely?' For me, I wasn't having a startling high minded moment of political theory (to say the least) it was just so blindingly obvious that Corbynism needed some way back to the working class, some way of getting through the splintered relationship that lead to Brexit. It wasn't that Corbyn ever showed any signs that he was willing to open up the structure of the party, let it shift into genuine community organising. But it was just about the only thing that could be done to start undoing a) what has been done to communities and b) Labour's relationship to, more importantly, part in communities. But then here we are, catastrophe ensues and suddenly it's all about getting back to working class communities. But those communities still sound rather passive in this and in other versions of Labour's apparent turn back to working class communities.

 

[redsquirrel]

letter in the Observer, interesting to know which of them abstained on the 2015 welfare reform bill.

List of abstainers here, list of rebels here.

Creagh, Reynolds, Turley and Wilson all abstained. I don't think the rest were MPs at the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

Extremist politics don't fly in Britain.

Have you looked at the current cabinet?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

My main problems with the RLB leadership pitch article are threefold.

Firstly, it’s really badly written. It feels like a cut and paste job, vague ideas chucked together. Where is the core message? Where is the narrative sweep. They’ve had nearly a month to do this remember.

Secondly, progressive patriotism is something Blair or Miliband could have come up with. It’s amorphous, it’s shiftable, it can be clunkingly dog whistle stuff. Because it lacks definition and deliberately holds multiple meanings it ultimately lacks real substance and meaning.

Finally, where has the aspiration to a social movement gone? A few dashed off sentences about ‘turning up’ and supporting union campaigns and then rush back to the top down, party control/battle real focus.

Really poor

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'Progressive patriotism' is totally meaningless, especially when she gives as an example to illustrate it an act against cotton import that was opposed to the wishes of the British state. Wtf did that have to do with patriotism?

Reminds me of Brown's desperate 'British jobs for British people' crap.

 

[The39thStep]

My main problems with the RLB leadership pitch article are threefold.

Firstly, it’s really badly written. It feels like a cut and paste job, vague ideas chucked together. Where is the core message? Where is the narrative sweep. They’ve had nearly a month to do this remember.

Secondly, progressive patriotism is something Blair or Miliband could have come up with. It’s amorphous, it’s shiftable, it can be clunkingly dog whistle stuff. Because it lacks definition and deliberately holds multiple meanings it ultimately lacks real substance and meaning.

Finally, where has the aspiration to a social movement gone? A few dashed off sentences about ‘turning up’ and supporting union campaigns and then rush back to the top down, party control/battle real focus.

Really poor

You are right the progressive patriotism thing needs some fleshing out . I'm not against a pride in the things that we value in our country , but of course thats a whole subjective area unless its built up in a shared experience . I dont have a problem about framing things about what the country could achieve rather than what the w/class can achieve providing the w/class are central to that. Biggest disapointment is of course the link to social movement, without that its all top down aspiration/I have a dream stuff without anyway of getting there except 'heres our manifesto please vote for it'.

 

[rekil]

Billy "class is sooooo last century" Bragg has a book called Progressive Patriot.

 

[JimW]

Yes, if progressive patriotism meant you didn't look like you actually didn't like where you were from and the people around you (and that meant the working class, our history and our evolving culture) then fine, if it means some saccharine stuff about the greatest generation or morris dancing, not so much.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Another problem with Left-Labour’s enthusiasm for community work is that they will always be faced with the choice of doing that effectively OR the next election cycle plus whatever infighting the party is engaged in this week.

My suspicion is that a lot of people will find the latter more exciting/rewarding compared to the slow burn of every day community stuff.

Hopefully I will be proved wrong.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Another problem with Left-Labour’s enthusiasm for community work is that they will always be faced with the choice of doing that effectively OR the next election cycle plus whatever infighting the party is engaged in this week.

My suspicion is that a lot of people will find the latter more exciting/rewarding compared to the slow burn of every day community stuff.

Hopefully I will be proved wrong.

Even if labour members could be thrown into community work, this also only utilises existing labour members, more akin to volunteering or charity work. Doing stuff for the (passive) working class, not the working class doing stuff for itself. If labour ever serious about building the social movement the left of labour talked about in 2015 then this has to be about empowering ordinary people to take action, it has to be using the power of the labour party and labour movement (influence, financial, guidance, support, MPs etc throwing weight behind x,y,z) to support organic community stuff not astroturfing a load of official labour stuff manned by momentum supporters and fellow travellers (it would be momentum, like fuck the pre-15 membership would, maybe a few trots in sects aside).

 

[Ax^]

Extremist politics don't fly in Britain.

have you seen some of the Tory MPs who got in this time

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Have you looked at the current cabinet?

have you seen some of the Tory MPs who got in this time

Alan Bennett: 'It's not a government, it's a gang'

 

[Pickman's model]

have you seen some of the Tory MPs who got in this time

It's wicked to mock the afflicted

 

[Smokeandsteam]

If labour ever serious about building the social movement the left of labour talked about in 2015 then this has to be about empowering ordinary people to take action, it has to be using the power of the labour party and labour movement (influence, financial, guidance, support, MPs etc throwing weight behind x,y,z) to support organic community stuff not astroturfing a load of official labour stuff manned by momentum supporters and fellow travellers.

This is basically it in a nutshell.

And, a commitment to it and a plan to deliver it that is credible, should be the bottom line litmus test applied to any potential leader or group or lefts full stop. RLB has failed the test badly to date

 

[brixtonscot]

"Progressive patriotism" ?
Maybe RLB was trying to evoke some sense of collective/community solidarity - but should that not start of locally - not some blind allegiance to the "fatherland".
And which "fatherland" - Britain or England ?

Does building local solidarity then need to transcend outwards into regional and then "national"...then inter-"national" and then eventually global ?

In principle we may regard ourselves as inter-"nationalists" ( maybe trans-nationalists could be more accurate ? ) and oppose borders etc , but in practice , for the foreseeable future , nations exist - and do we need to work with what we have ?

If/when Scotland becomes independent , will the Left in England ( & Wales? ) have to acknowledge that there is then an English "national" dimension to operate within ?
i.e. pragmatically recognising local/regional/national working class cultures and struggles located within the geographic area commonly known as the "nation" of England......WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

 

[Serge Forward]

With my pedantic hat on, internationalism by definition, includes an acknowledgement of the existence of nations. In reality it's anationalism or non-nationalism that is against all nations: Lanti: Manifesto of Non-Nationalists

Any road, the idea of 'progressive patriotism' is utter bollocks. Class or nation, you can't have both. Well, you can but it's just another shade of capitalist shite.

 

[ska invita]

I'll be honest, the context for left book clubs in the 1930s - when many working class people had no or little formal education and none had TVs or the internet - and the context today is a bit different. It would just be (and I have no doubt is) an obscure group for a few people already immersed in the left which offers no potential for the stuff that needs to happen to entrench a disruptive pro working class politics in working class areas

yeah of course it cant be replicated as the 30s/40s - the context is massively different.
But people in the UK love book clubs. There are an estimated 50,000 book clubs running in the uk. A good book club like this doesnt mean reading capital chapter by chapter, it means mixing up fiction with nonfiction, in an accessible and cross-tradition fashion.

How to do ANYTHING without it being "an obscure group for a few people already immersed in the left" is always a challenge but not impossible. How you present it is key. Is it a silver bullet? Of course not. But the key thing is its a dead simple thing to get running.

 

[Proper Tidy]

yeah of course it cant be replicated as the 30s/40s - the context is massively different.
But people in the UK love book clubs. There are an estimated 50,000 book clubs running in the uk. A good book club like this doesnt mean reading capital chapter by chapter, it means mixing up fiction with nonfiction, in an accessible and cross-tradition fashion.

How to do ANYTHING without it being "an obscure group for a few people already immersed in the left" is always a challenge but not impossible. How you present it is key. Is it a silver bullet? Of course not. But the key thing is its a dead simple thing to get running.

Yeah fair enough. I think stuff like cooperative/mutual child care - so parents grouping together to run 'free' childcare (£ free, contribute time and labour so that each parent can work or have own time) would be much more likely to engage working class people and it wouldn't be by activists, although imagine the DBS/insurance stuff would be a nightmare. Costs of childcare is a huge problem, people (mainly women, mainly working class) can't find or keep work that fits around bring a parent, a mutual aid arrangement could be genuinely transformative to many in a dogshit and rubbish bins sort of way.

 

[Rob Ray]

Another problem with Left-Labour’s enthusiasm for community work is that they will always be faced with the choice of doing that effectively OR the next election cycle plus whatever infighting the party is engaged in this week.

My suspicion is that a lot of people will find the latter more exciting/rewarding compared to the slow burn of every day community stuff.

Hopefully I will be proved wrong.

After 120 years-odd of testing I think it's unlikely you'll be proved wrong this time.

 

[PursuedByBears]

Yeah fair enough. I think stuff like cooperative/mutual child care - so parents grouping together to run 'free' childcare (£ free, contribute time and labour so that each parent can work or have own time) would be much more likely to engage working class people and it wouldn't be by activists, although imagine the DBS/insurance stuff would be a nightmare. Costs of childcare is a huge problem, people (mainly women, mainly working class) can't find or keep work that fits around bring a parent, a mutual aid arrangement could be genuinely transformative to many in a dogshit and rubbish bins sort of way.

You'd also have to teach the EYFS curriculum and be inspected by Ofsted.

 

[Sasaferrato]

"Progressive patriotism" ?
Maybe RLB was trying to evoke some sense of collective/community solidarity - but should that not start of locally - not some blind allegiance to the "fatherland".
And which "fatherland" - Britain or England ?

Does building local solidarity then need to transcend outwards into regional and then "national"...then inter-"national" and then eventually global ?

In principle we may regard ourselves as inter-"nationalists" ( maybe trans-nationalists could be more accurate ? ) and oppose borders etc , but in practice , for the foreseeable future , nations exist - and do we need to work with what we have ?

If/when Scotland becomes independent , will the Left in England ( & Wales? ) have to acknowledge that there is then an English "national" dimension to operate within ?
i.e. pragmatically recognising local/regional/national working class cultures and struggles located within the geographic area commonly known as the "nation" of England......WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

There was a time when the loss of Labour seats in Scotland because of independence would have led to pretty much eternal Conservative government.

It appears to have happened without independence.

I really don't know where Labour goes from here. They have a hell of a hill to climb.

The regeneration of Labour is essential, it isn't healthy to have one party in a dominant position for decades, which is what looks likely at present.

It would perhaps help their cause to drop the extremist language, and set out achievable objectives.

My 'wish list' would be:

Scrap Trident.

Scrap HS2.

Start a large social housing program, by the establishment of a National Housing Corporation. Once you get past a certain number of houses, rental income would fund new building, input of state cash would be quantifiable and finite. On the back of this, get apprentices into training.

Tax the big corporations that are avoiding tax. Use a turnover tax if necessary.

Increase NHS funding. Borrow to buy out the PFI contracts that are crippling health trusts.

Increase public transport provision funded by dropping the freeze on fuel duty.

Look at hydrogen technology for vehicles and home heating.

Introduce a requirement to have worked in a real world job for at least ten years, before being eligible to be an MP.

Introduce a training scheme for doctors, where no tuition fees are paid, and either accommodating provided for the whole of the training period, or a bursary paid. In return, the newly qualified doctors would be obliged to work full time in the NHS for a period equivalent to their training. (At the usual salary).

Look after those who cannot look after themselves, in a decent and dignified manner. Build psychiatric bed provision.

Any party that offered part of that would get my vote.