Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[snadge]

Eh? Them who? What are they wrong about? Or do you just expect me to make up a situation where someone says something I disagree with and I tell them I disagree?

You are being a tad odd tbh.

How do you deal with people you know in real life that that have extremely differing views to yourself?

 

[andysays]

How do you deal with people you know in real life that that have extremely differing views to yourself?

(if it's anything like here)

 

[Treacle Toes]

 

[snadge]

So you're a shitlord, figures, keep telling us what to think ey.

This is the second time I have pulled you on your bullshit.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So you're a shitlord, figures, keep telling us what to think ey.

This is the second time I have pulled you on your bullshit.

Again what the fuck are you talking about?

I was in the middle of responding to your question btw and then saw what andy posted. My pic was a response to his shitstirring attack on me...I also noticed you were quick to like his post so concluded why the fuck would I waste any of my Sunday evening communicating with you given the way you have spoken to me tonight for no good reason...and here you are again bigging up your chest like you have caught me out on something.

You have never pulled me on any bullshit other than something you have clearly concocted in your head. Your misreading of my posting that pic above is a great example of the futility of trying to have a conversation with you. Given I don't remember ever really interacting with you before, it's odd and pointless imo. But you crack on big man yeah?

 

[snadge]

Again what the fuck are you talking about.

I was in the middle of responding you to your question btw and then saw what andy posted. My pic was a response to his shitstirring attack on me...I also noticed you were quick to like his post so concluded why the fuck would I waste any of my Sunday evening communicating with you given the way you have spoken to me tonight for no good reason...and here you are again bigging up your chest like you have caught me out on something.

You have never pulled me on any bullshit other than something you have clearly concocted in your head. Your misreading of my posting that pic above is a great example of the futility of trying to have a conversation with you. Given I don't remember evr really interacting with you before, it odd and pointless imo. But you crack on big man yeah?

LOL.

Try the transgender thread where you also tried to tell people how to think and I pulled you up about it.

Do you have that much shite battering your brain that you can't remember your gobshiting online from a few weeks ago.

Fucking sad.

You still haven't answered my question.

 

[Treacle Toes]

LOL.

Try the transgender thread where you also tried to tell people how to think and I pulled you up about it.

Do you have that much shite battering your brain that you can't remember your gobshiting online from a few weeks ago.

Fucking sad.

You know what, get to fuck. You have not pulled me on jack.

Sad? That would be you right about now. So what, you've disagreed with me before? Am I the only one? Do other people having differing opinions to you make you feel unhappy? Other people have opinions but if I do it's evidence of me gobshiteing and telling people what to do? Utterly pathetic.

You couldn't even work out why I would post that shitstirring pic above ffs!

You've got nothing, you've come with nothing and you'll leave with nothing.

Fucking sad alright.

 

[snadge]

You know what, get to fuck. You have not pulled me on jack.

Sad? That would be you right about now. So what, you've disagreed with me before? Am I the only one? Do other people having differing opinions to you make you feel unhappy? Other people have opinions but if I do it's evidence of me gobshiteing and telling people what to do? Utterly pathetic.

You couldn't even work out why I would post that shitstirring pic above ffs!

You've got nothing, you've come with nothing and you'll leave with nothing.

Fucking sad alright.

Politico in training right here.

You won't answer my question, you deny that you push an agenda.


You are scum with no integrity.

 

[Rob Ray]

Don't worry Rutita1, if you tire of showcasing what happens when most of your debate training comes via social media even Urban has a block button.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Politico in training right here.

You won't answer my question, you deny that you push an agenda.

You are scum with no integrity.

Scum? That's just so utterly stupid an insult. You've mounted a non-attack, with no evidence and i'm refusing to play. What a twit.

Don't worry Rutita1, if you tire of showcasing what happens when most of your debate training comes via social media even Urban has a block button.

I've been here for 10 years and I don't have 1 person on ignore...so dream on Rob.

You two make quite a pair. Throwing your weight around, demanding answers regardless of how you frame the questions and how hostile you are. Getting really upset because I refuse to do as you say.

..and i'm the hysterical one apparently.

 

[snadge]

Don't worry Rutita1, if you tire of showcasing what happens when most of your debate training comes via social media even Urban has a block button.

Your tagline was never truer.

 

[Rob Ray]

Have I given the impression of being upset? How odd, because tbh for me your thrashing about is mostly just a vaguely amusing distraction from having to think about bookfair debacles at this point. I did have a genuine point to make initially, but have come to the conclusion you're far too busy throwing invective around to actually address it.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Oh dear. Well not so much an impasse as the usual urban bunfight.
shame - I almost thought I might learn something on this thread.

<snip> Ok; forgive me, am still confused by this whole issue. I'd never heard of IDP until it started cropping up here and also from (very) right wing posters elsewhere online.

I don't think I'll ever get the hang of it. And yes, people have tried to explain it to me but it's over my head.

I know what you mean. I feel I have a vague idea of what IDpol means now (after 30p ages), but I'm not sure how a marxian class analysis helps to see things anymore clearly - or why this is totally opposite approach. Mostly 'ID politics' seems to be an insult to throw at anyone who doesn't agree with every detail of someone's political outlook.

 

[Red Cat]

I think it's something like this:

A class analysis tells us that the majority of us are exploited. We have that in common whatever our differences. That capitalism encourages divisions between us by strategies of divide and rule that weaken us. Many people are more oppressed than I am, but I am exploited, and so are you, because that's how capitalism works. When capitalism is in crisis, more extreme measures are required by the capitalist class to keep it going, to maintain power. Hence the move to the extreme right occurring currently. If we don't work with what we have in common rather than fighting about our differences we are fucked.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Yeah, fair enough. Please don't feel like you can't ask questions, I'm sorry for giving that impression. That's the attitude I run into from the idpol crowd: 'how dare you question us it's not our job to educate you'. Not cool. Questions are part of conversation and are good. Yeah in my call-centre work nobody really spoke about class much either but I do feel there was a level of class solidarity (we're all stuck in this shitty situation together). Identity politics would make absolutely no sense in that environment and I never detected a hint of it.

I don't get the impression my co workers have much idea of class solidarity either. Many of them are far too ready to agree with Daily Mail headlines scapegoating of 'scroungers' etc. Perceptions of class are not just about being a worker or not - but of access to education, housing and work opportunities, muddied by issues of age, it seems to be a more complex a picture now than in my youth


sorry ony posted for the famous class sketch - didn't intend to include any Benny Hill - whoops

 

[friendofdorothy]

Yeah, fair enough. Please don't feel like you can't ask questions, I'm sorry for giving that impression. That's the attitude I run into from the idpol crowd: 'how dare you question us it's not our job to educate you'. Not cool. Questions are part of conversation and are good.

Re: 'how dare you question us it's not our job to educate you'. - for decades, I felt the only way to change an overwhelmingly hostile public opinion towards queer people was to win people over one at a time. This meant being out and open and honest about sexuality as much as possible, answering and explaining whenever. Have you any idea how tiring that gets after thirty+ years? Now when people ask me those sorts of questions (which tbf doesn't happen as often these days - but does still happen) I feel no compunction to educate anyone anymore, I really don't think it's my job any more.

I'm trying to reconcile my queer activist past with politics now. I like to say my bit to educate urbs maybe - like a walking history lesson - but ask me in person and you are likely to get a less than polite 'fuck off'. Perhaps you can understand my confusion when you say this is an IDpol 'attitude'

 

[krtek a houby]

I think it's something like this:

A class analysis tells us that the majority of us are exploited. We have that in common whatever our differences. That capitalism encourages divisions between us by strategies of divide and rule that weaken us. Many people are more oppressed than I am, but I am exploited, and so are you, because that's how capitalism works. When capitalism is in crisis, more extreme measures are required by the capitalist class to keep it going, to maintain power. Hence the move to the extreme right occurring currently. If we don't work with what we have in common rather than fighting about our differences we are fucked.

Thanks for that. Whilst it would be foolish to suggest that those on the left are some kind of hive mind and must all have the same outlook and goals; it is depressing that the infighting is quite scathing. The vitriol on certain threads lately... it's just anger. Hatreds, even. I don't just mean bun fights but fundamental distrust of each others. There's some real intelligent and passionate folk on urban, more than many forums I've read - if the unity was there - what an unstoppable force it would be.

I'm going to leave it there, as I don't want to derail. But sorry; the treatment of Rutita here is a disgrace.

 

[Shechemite]

Thanks for that. Whilst it would be foolish to suggest that those on the left are some kind of hive mind and must all have the same outlook and goals; it is depressing that the infighting is quite scathing. The vitriol on certain threads lately... it's just anger. Hatreds, even. I don't just mean bun fights but fundamental distrust of each others. There's some real intelligent and passionate folk on urban, more than many forums I've read - if the unity was there - what an unstoppable force it would be.

I'm going to leave it there, as I don't want to derail. But sorry; the treatment of Rutita here is a disgrace.

What is particularly disgraceful about about the posts to rutita?

 

[krtek a houby]

What is particularly discraceful about about the posts to rutita?

If you're opposed to Rutita, you probably won't have issues with stuff like this



and

I mean, this is not true. Rutita was not telling people how to think.

And the ganging up on him/her is typical of a handful of posters here. Little snide comments, whatabouttery, digs etc.

How does stuff like that advance debate?

 

[Shechemite]

If you're opposed to Rutita, you probably won't have issues with stuff like this

View attachment 120387

and
View attachment 120388
I mean, this is not true. Rutita was not telling people how to think.

And the ganging up on him/her is typical of a handful of posters here. Little snide comments, whatabouttery, digs etc.

How does stuff like that advance debate?

I left the thread to do other things before the ‘scum’ comment came in. And yes, that’s not on.

The rest of your post is typical of the victim-y hypocrisy of your politics (and, of course, IDPol as a whole).

Demanding a standard of behaviour that you’ll never be prepared to meet yourself.

Trying to get your way by being obnoxious (when it suits) or playing the victim/persecution card (when it suits).

You know that people see through this, don’t you?

 

[krtek a houby]

I left the thread to do other things before the ‘scum’ comment came in. And yes, that’s not on.

The rest of your post is the victim-y hypocrisy of your politics (and, of course, IDPol as a whole).

Demanding a standard of behaviour that you’ll never be prepared to meet yourself.

Trying to get your way by being obnoxious (when it suits) or playing the victim/persecution card (when it suits).

You know that people see through this, don’t you?

And there we go - again. Shutting down debate by making concerns about bullying into an attack on the poster who raises said concerns.

I see through your posts, too and your kind of approach is no different to online far right trolls deflecting debate by yelling "pc" and "identity politics".

 

[Shechemite]

And there we go - again. Shutting down debate by making concerns about bullying into an attack on the poster who raises said concerns.

I see through your posts, too and your kind of approach is no different to online far right trolls deflecting debate by yelling "pc" and "identity politics".

Yep. There you go again. Allusions to the far right.

When you attack posters it’s ‘raising concerns’; their behaviour of course is ‘bullying’ (or insert whatever hyperbole).

 

[krtek a houby]

Yep. There you go again. Allusions to the far right.

When you attack posters it’s ‘raising concerns’; their behaviour of course is ‘bullying’ (or insert whatever hyperbole).

There is a shared language being used here. If you can't or won't see it, that's down to you. It's divisive and widens the impasse.

And there's little doubt that bullying and sniping goes on - from the petty to the aggressive level.

 

[Shechemite]

There is a shared language being used here. If you can't or won't see it, that's down to you. It's divisive and widens the impasse.

And there's little doubt that bullying and sniping goes on - from the petty to the aggressive level.

View attachment 120389

What is your attachment meant to show?

Oh and please do elaborate on my ‘shared language’ with the far right

 

[krtek a houby]

What is your attachment meant to show?

It's meant to show the pettiness involved here. You don't agree with Rutita - all well and good - but what's the point of referring to his/her tagline? What purpose does it serve, exactly? That to have differing opinions is somehow hysterical?

 

[Shechemite]

It's meant to show the pettiness involved here. You don't agree with Rutita - all well and good - but what's the point of referring to his/her tagline? What purpose does it serve, exactly? That to have differing opinions is somehow hysterical?

Indeed. Calling out behaviour (in this instance an overblown, ‘hysterical’ reaction to a post) is verboten, according to you.

Unless you’re the one that’s doing it, of course.

And that’s IDPol: a hypocritical, one sided imposition of ‘manners’ to control others (instead of doing the necessary growing up to be in control of oneself).

It’s a a set of therapeutic issues, not political ones.



And this ‘shared language’...?

 

[krtek a houby]

Indeed. Calling out behaviour (in this instance an overblown, ‘hysterical’ reaction to a post) is verboten, according to you.

Unless you’re the one that’s doing it, of course.

And that’s IDPol: a hypocritical, one sided imposition of ‘manners’ to control others (instead of doing the necessary growing up to be in control of oneself).

It’s a a set of therapeutic issues, not political ones.



And this ‘shared language’...?

So, only the select may determine what the correct approach is. The identity politics phrase is now mainstream and it cannot be challenged? If one does so; expect a fury of responses,ad homs and lectures about the person who doesn't buy into the phrase? And what does the phrase mean? Going by the use of it by right wingers; it's anything that people on the left are passionate about. Sure, that may be pertaining to the individual and their experiences as say, LGBT, people of colour, disabled, being religious etc. That's why I say the phrase is a shared language.I don't get why some want to appropriate a term so widely used on the right as a term of derision and dismissal.

As for manners or controlling oneself; I see people here who do that - danny, for example (even if a lot of goes over my head). And I see people who just jump in and have a go at other posters for challenging the new status quo.

Is it really a sign of stupidity or being "childish" to wonder about the term?

 

[BigTom]

So, only the select may determine what the correct approach is. The identity politics phrase is now mainstream and it cannot be challenged? If one does so; expect a fury of responses,ad homs and lectures about the person who doesn't buy into the phrase? And what does the phrase mean? Going by the use of it by right wingers; it's anything that people on the left are passionate about. Sure, that may be pertaining to the individual and their experiences as say, LGBT, people of colour, disabled, being religious etc. That's why I say the phrase is a shared language.I don't get why some want to appropriate a term so widely used on the right as a term of derision and dismissal.

As for manners or controlling oneself; I see people here who do that - danny, for example (even if a lot of goes over my head). And I see people who just jump in and have a go at other posters for challenging the new status quo.

Is it really a sign of stupidity or being "childish" to wonder about the term?

I'd be more concerned about how the far right appropriate the ideas and ideology of idpol than about where the terminology rose from and the possibility of a shared term.

I'm sure i've learnt the term from left wing politics, though i've no idea where our when it was coined. I find the right using 'cultural Marxism' to group describe everyone they see on the left including the liberal, not in the least bit Marxist, proponents of idpol. I think they are terming their idpol as 'identitarian' aren't they? Or maybe that's just one group/network on the alt right

 

[krtek a houby]

I'd be more concerned about how the far right appropriate the ideas and ideology of idpol than about where the terminology rose from and the possibility of a shared term.

I'm sure i've learnt the term from left wing politics, though i've no idea where our when it was coined. I find the right using 'cultural Marxism' to group describe everyone they see on the left including the liberal, not in the least bit Marxist, proponents of idpol. I think they are terming their idpol as 'identitarian' aren't they? Or maybe that's just one group/network on the alt right

Like the left, the right is not some big hive mind, so it's hard to keep track of all the new terms that are coined! I had one person tell me recently that New Jersey is a Marxist Democrat Blue State. Is that a thing? Other nuggets of wisdom is that the left invented ISIS, knew all about Hollywood abusers and is to blame, antifa is murdering people, terrorism cannot be carried out by white people etc etc.

With this much hate, misinformation and vitriol out there... it's a shame that everything gets bogged down by semantics.

I've not heard of the term "identitarian" yet. I can't keep up!

 

[BigTom]

Like the left, the right is not some big hive mind, so it's hard to keep track of all the new terms that are coined! I had one person tell me recently that New Jersey is a Marxist Democrat Blue State. Is that a thing? Other nuggets of wisdom is that the left invented ISIS, knew all about Hollywood abusers and is to blame, antifa is murdering people, terrorism cannot be carried out by white people etc etc.

With this much hate, misinformation and vitriol out there... it's a shame that everything gets bogged down by semantics.

I've not heard of the term "identitarian" yet. I can't keep up!

Identitarian movement - Wikipedia

Looking at it, It's a group/network rather than a term i think, they call it a 'movement' which is appropriate in the bowel sense of the word.