Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[Fozzie Bear]

Similarly in the US you saw the attitude that Hilary Clinton was a better candidate for women than Bernie Sanders, because she was a woman.

Whereas actually Sanders' policies would have made a far more positive impact on more women's lives in the US.

 

[lazythursday]

This is why I keep referring to indentitypolitics as a political framework rather than a set of "behaviours" or "excesses" as characterised by some people (indeed I think such that characterisation is false and makes little sense).

For example both class politics and identitypolitics are opposed to the pay differential between men and women, where they come into conflict is (1) how they view that battle in the wider view of the world and (2) the means by which it should be challenged.

But absolutely nobody has argued for "abandoning fights for equality". Indeed much of the criticism of indentitypolitics is that it doesn'tactually tackle the fight for equality, but rather just wants to deal with a few aspects of the issue (often the aspects of most interest to the middle class).

Fine - don't have an issue with that at all - but I do think there are some posters (and I'm sure others elsewhere) who increasingly label issues/incidents as identitypolitics purely on the basis that they involve a minority group, rather than that they are part of that opposing political framework.

 

[BigTom]

The black lives matter movement in the US is an example of anti-racist action which isn't identity politics imo. There is a clear intersection between race and class in the oppression being tackled (a double discrimination). It crosses into identity politics when people strip away the nuance and interpret it as all white people are guilty of perpetuating racism, even poor white people are oppressing upper middle class black people.

I'm willing to be corrected here but that's an example I thought of.

I think BLM is generally idpol. I would use the Black Panthers as an example of anti-racist action, formed around identity, which is not identity politics. They clearly (for the most part at least afaik) had a material/class analysis and were to some extent at least, marxist revolutionaries. quite a lot of their political action revolved around things like breakfast clubs and community organisation and never crossed over into black separatist crap like the nation of islam/louis farrakhan did.
(disclaimer: I'm sure others on here know way more about the Black Panthers than I do and I await to be corrected)

 

[redsquirrel]

Similarly in the US you saw the attitude that Hilary Clinton was a better candidate for women than Bernie Sanders, because she was a woman.

Whereas actually Sanders' policies would have made a far more positive impact on more women's lives in the US.

Likewise with the nonsense of the WEP party arguing for pay rises for some of the wealthiest in society while at the same time remaining silent about the cuts to tax credits and benefits that would hurt millions of women.

 

[DotCommunist]

Similarly in the US you saw the attitude that Hilary Clinton was a better candidate for women than Bernie Sanders, because she was a woman.

Whereas actually Sanders' policies would have made a far more positive impact on more women's lives in the US.

to the point where Clinton supporters, with the approval of the machine, decided that the best way to fight against the support for those policies was to label the supporters white, male misogynist and crypto racist- hence 'berniebros' . And that one is still in use.

 

[BigTom]

Similarly in the US you saw the attitude that Hilary Clinton was a better candidate for women than Bernie Sanders, because she was a woman.

Whereas actually Sanders' policies would have made a far more positive impact on more women's lives in the US.

Same here with the Labour leadership election and people arguing to elect Harriet Harman rather than Corbyn since she is a woman, despite her New Labour ministerial stuff that included iirc things like cutting welfare support for single mothers.

 

[redsquirrel]

Fine - don't have an issue with that at all - but I do think there are some posters (and I'm sure others elsewhere) who increasingly label issues/incidents as identitypolitics purely on the basis that they involve a minority group, rather than that they are part of that opposing political framework.

I will agree with you that there are a couple of posters on U75 that sometimes seem to fall into this trap. In fact I'd argue that they've almost bleed into an indentitypolitics themselves, one that puts "class" at the forefront, but a idea of class that is itself nothing more than an identity.

However, I think they are the minority.

 

[lazythursday]

All those examples are very clear - crystal clear. It's the muddier situations that might be more illuminating. Eg, I'm interested in whether Black Lives Matter is identitypolitics or not, given there's some disagreement.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

Similarly in the US you saw the attitude that Hilary Clinton was a better candidate for women than Bernie Sanders, because she was a woman.

Whereas actually Sanders' policies would have made a far more positive impact on more women's lives in the US.

I think BLM is generally idpol. I would use the Black Panthers as an example of anti-racist action, formed around identity, which is not identity politics. They clearly (for the most part at least afaik) had a material/class analysis and were to some extent at least, marxist revolutionaries. quite a lot of their political action revolved around things like breakfast clubs and community organisation and never crossed over into black separatist crap like the nation of islam/louis farrakhan did.
(disclaimer: I'm sure others on here know way more about the Black Panthers than I do and I await to be corrected)

Yes these are much better and clearer examples than mine. I remember reading about the Black Panthers and being surprised that their manifesto basically argued for communism rather than racial issues specifically.

I think BLM wasq quite diverse and decentralised so there were people who had a strong class consciousness and others who were quite idpol focused. It did draw a lot of support from deprived black communities which I think counts for something.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

All those examples are very clear - crystal clear. It's the muddier situations that might be more illuminating. Eg, I'm interested in whether Black Lives Matter is identitypolitics or not, given there's some disagreement.

Yeah that is interesting. I've definitely seen examples of both within the BLM movement. Protests with black and white people together displaying marxist slogans, and protests with people shouting fuck white people.

 

[Athos]

The black lives matter movement in the US is an example of anti-racist action which isn't identity politics imo. There is a clear intersection between race and class in the oppression being tackled (a double discrimination). It crosses into identity politics when people strip away the nuance and interpret it as all white people are guilty of perpetuating racism, even poor white people are oppressing upper middle class black people.

I'm willing to be corrected here but that's an example I thought of.

You might find this interesting: How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence

 

[BigTom]

All those examples are very clear - crystal clear. It's the muddier situations that might be more illuminating. Eg, I'm interested in whether Black Lives Matter is identitypolitics or not, given there's some disagreement.

One of the problems with discussing this is that BLM itself is not a single organisation, so some parts / people will very definitely be pursuing a form of IDPol, where others will not. For me it comes down to the theoretical nature of the ideas behind the actions that gives it the clear definition - where does the change you are seeking come from? If you base this in a material/class analysis you will not be following IDPol. If you base it on a liberal individualist analysis then you probably will.

 

[lazythursday]

OK, let me explore another example. A future extreme right government, egged on by the Daily Mail, has decided to legislate to get rid of gay marriage. A campaign against this begins. Clearly such a campaign is bound to include all manner of political backgrounds, and focused on a narrow legislative change isn't going to have much in the way of class analysis in its formation - so it it identitypolitics?

 

[redsquirrel]

OK, let me explore another example. A future extreme right government, egged on by the Daily Mail, has decided to legislate to get rid of gay marriage. A campaign against this begins. Clearly such a campaign is bound to include all manner of political backgrounds, and focused on a narrow legislative change isn't going to have much in the way of class analysis in its formation - so it it identitypolitics?

Well the official campaign is probably likely to be filled with all types of liberal pricks. But that doesn't mean that socialists can't/shouldn't/wouldn't organise on their own terms to defend gay marriage.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

OK, let me explore another example. A future extreme right government, egged on by the Daily Mail, has decided to legislate to get rid of gay marriage. A campaign against this begins. Clearly such a campaign is bound to include all manner of political backgrounds, and focused on a narrow legislative change isn't going to have much in the way of class analysis in its formation - so it it identitypolitics?

Not necessarily. A single-issue campaign group is not necessarily IDP.

 

[Treacle Toes]

OK, let me explore another example. A future extreme right government, egged on by the Daily Mail, has decided to legislate to get rid of gay marriage. A campaign against this begins. Clearly such a campaign is bound to include all manner of political backgrounds, and focused on a narrow legislative change isn't going to have much in the way of class analysis in its formation - so it it identitypolitics?

I think you've hit on an important 'rub'. People can and do support x, y, z campaign on their own terms. Picking and choosing when and how they get involved etc. Simply dismissing them as idpolitickers because you don't like the approach of someone else who also supports that particular issue seems really blinkered given the complexity of our lives, interests, backgrounds etc.

 

[lazythursday]

Well the official campaign is probably likely to be filled with all types of liberal pricks. But that doesn't mean that socialists can't/shouldn't/wouldn't organise on their own terms to defend gay marriage.

But in terms of actually defeating the legislation and defending my marriage (if I had one, ha!) it might tactically be the best thing to join in with the official campaign despite the presence of, say, Ivan Massow.

Not necessarily. A single-issue campaign group is not necessarily IDP.

I'd like to understand what makes that the case.

 

[kabbes]

OK, let me explore another example. A future extreme right government, egged on by the Daily Mail, has decided to legislate to get rid of gay marriage. A campaign against this begins. Clearly such a campaign is bound to include all manner of political backgrounds, and focused on a narrow legislative change isn't going to have much in the way of class analysis in its formation - so it it identitypolitics?

Is it a campaign focussed on the separate life experiences of gay people from straight people? Or is it a movement based on solidity and seeking equal rights for all?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think BLM is generally idpol. I would use the Black Panthers as an example of anti-racist action, formed around identity, which is not identity politics. They clearly (for the most part at least afaik) had a material/class analysis and were to some extent at least, marxist revolutionaries. quite a lot of their political action revolved around things like breakfast clubs and community organisation and never crossed over into black separatist crap like the nation of islam/louis farrakhan did.
(disclaimer: I'm sure others on here know way more about the Black Panthers than I do and I await to be corrected)

The Black Panthers were split on it - they also had members who argued black nationalist positions.

 

[DotCommunist]

I mean you'd still watch who you were marching with on any of these things. See paddick ending up strolling along a march with BNP blokey. I recall ages ago, massive TUC march pink and black bloc had organised a feeder group/unofficial one. So theres things within things- an example of that is yes I'd march with people fighting what lazy thursday suggests but I'm not staying to listen to a speeches by labour politicians, regardless.


Heather Heyer iirc started her activism working with BLM and moved onto DSA- theres some crossover between the groups but how much I couldn't say. The blokey just elected in virginia is DSA. First virginia, then manhattan! lol

 

[lazythursday]

Is it a campaign focussed on the separate life experiences of gay people from straight people? Or is it a movement based on solidity and seeking equal rights for all?

Well I think you could view it is either depending on your place on the political spectrum. But I think that comment is interesting. Can you give an example of a campaign for minority rights that are about 'separate life experiences'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd like to understand what makes that the case.

Wot kabbes says above really. In this example, it's easy to see how such a campaign could (and probably would) be cast as a defence of equal rights for all that brought in wide support from all corners.

 

[redsquirrel]

But in terms of actually defeating the legislation and defending my marriage (if I had one, ha!) it might tactically be the best thing to join in with the official campaign despite the presence of, say, Ivan Massow.

Well that's a tactical question on a hypothetical so it's a bit hard to answer. But personally I'd say people would probably be better staying clear of the official campaign and articulating the line of solidarity that kabbes mentioned. In addition, by not joining in the official campaign you can use this issue to press for further demands.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well I think you could view it is either depending on your place on the political spectrum. But I think that comment is interesting. Can you give an example of a campaign for minority rights that are about 'separate life experiences'?

Faith schools and extending them to different religious groups. The right to use Sharia or Jewish courts.

 

[kabbes]

Well I think you could view it is either depending on your place on the political spectrum. But I think that comment is interesting. Can you give an example of a campaign for minority rights that are about 'separate life experiences'?

Well, that’s kind of stirring the pot. But this thread sprung out of discussion surrounding transgender rights, some of whose campaigns do seem rather to have that flavour. Hence the response of some women who are concerned that their own right to self-determination may be coming under threat as a consequence. I offer no opinion here as to the rights and wrongs of each side, but it is a good example of ID politics based rights campaigning.

 

[bimble]

Well I think you could view it is either depending on your place on the political spectrum. But I think that comment is interesting. Can you give an example of a campaign for minority rights that are about 'separate life experiences'?

There's a movement in Cameroon going on at the mo (just getting violent) where some folk are mobilising to have a separate nation for those who speak English instead of French. Is that IDPOL?

 

[Treacle Toes]

The Black Panthers were split on it - they also had members who argued black nationalist positions.

Yes they were. It seems a romanticised position to imagine there wasn't or wouldn't have been a range of views given the context they organised within. Their socialist values were evident in the community organising and projects they ran though. Plenty of literature around detailing that.

My understanding is the New BPP is BN.

 

[lazythursday]

Perhaps this is where I come unstuck. I completely understand the clash of rights issue when it comes to transgender (and don't want to drag this thread into all that). But I don't understand why trans activists activities are to necessarily be dismissed as identity politics either. There's no reason why you couldn't have a class analysis and also be in favour of, say, the changes to the Gender Recognition Act and be fighting for that.

 

[kabbes]

There's no reason why you couldn't have a class analysis and also be in favour of, say, the changes to the Gender Recognition Act and be fighting for that.

Quite right, and that wouldn’t be ID politics. Is that what is happening though?

The faith school thing is an even better example, by the way.

 

[redsquirrel]

But I don't understand why trans activists activities are to necessarily be dismissed as identity politics either. There's no reason why you couldn't have a class analysis and also be in favour of, say, the changes to the Gender Recognition Act and be fighting for that.

Certainly.

I don't think trans activists activities are being necessarily dismissed as identitypolitics. Rather some trans activists activities are criticised as identitypolitics