Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[friendofdorothy]

Some really ugly social forces may kick their doors down one day. Backed by all those enemies that might once have been friends.

that sounds quite threatening? I'm a bit lost lost here - do you mean this literally? when you say 'their' do you mean these lgbt middleclass student types on social media? I'm a bit old to know any students and I don't use social media (other than u75) so all this is rather mystifying to me. I've know plenty of people who have been physically attacked/had their doors kicked in/offices fire bombed by some very ugly forces in RL, so naturally I have a defensive mindset.

No, they'll hide behind their own privileged access to formal education and act as gatekeepers to a club most people who come into contact with end up being alienated and disgusted by.

They could do something useful for a change and help the rest of us tear that bullshit down.

It sounds a bit like the general 'echo chamber' effect of things like FB are polarising debates. Do you find these sort of experiences in real life? Are lgbt /other students not involved in 'tearing that bullshit' down now?

The arguments are much the same are in my youth though though all the words and the settings have changed. We didn't need to exclude straight people from gay meetings in the 80s - on the whole you couldn't attract them - they just didn't attend. I'm reading Stuart Feathers book about Gay Lib in the early 70s now - lots of interesting stuff about how it grew out of revoluntary left ideas. He says how to concentrate on their own issues and not get hijacked by other agendas the GLF insisted that everyone stated their sexuality in meetings. Theres a good chapter about how the GLF women rejected the control of hetrosexual male moaists/ marxists at an early Womens Lib conference and changed the nature of feminist debate.

 

[friendofdorothy]

They could do something useful for a change and help the rest of us tear that bullshit down.

Meant to add - what useful things are you doing in tearing bullshit down? and which bullshit are you talking about - is this just FB bullshit?

 

[seventh bullet]

that sounds quite threatening? I'm a bit lost lost here - do you mean this literally? when you say 'their' do you mean these lgbt middleclass student types on social media? I'm a bit old to know any students and I don't use social media (other than u75) so all this is rather mystifying to me. I've know plenty of people who have been physically attacked/had their doors kicked in/offices fire bombed by some very ugly forces in RL, so naturally I have a defensive mindset.



It sounds a bit like the general 'echo chamber' effect of things like FB are polarising debates. Do you find these sort of experiences in real life? Are lgbt /other students not involved in 'tearing that bullshit' down now?

The arguments are much the same are in my youth though though all the words and the settings have changed. We didn't need to exclude straight people from gay meetings in the 80s - on the whole you couldn't attract them - they just didn't attend. I'm reading Stuart Feathers book about Gay Lib in the early 70s now - lots of interesting stuff about how it grew out of revoluntary left ideas. He says how to concentrate on their own issues and not get hijacked by other agendas the GLF insisted that everyone stated their sexuality in meetings. Theres a good chapter about how the GLF women rejected the control of hetrosexual male moaists/ marxists at an early Womens Lib conference and changed the nature of feminist debate.

Firstly, what am I threatening?

Middle class-dominated identity politics safely incorporated into our present iteration of capitalism actively undermines a politics of solidarity. If that is presented as the 'left,' and this is the widely understood way of seeing the world, of which some fascists are in the vanguard, then for the 'enemies' (everyone who doesn't know the rules of the game) of these liberals, I do worry for the future.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Firstly, what am I threatening?

that was my question? I didn't say you were threatening, I was asking what do you mean in that post? I'm none the wiser yet.

Middle class-dominated identity politics safely incorporated into our present iteration of capitalism actively undermines a politics of solidarity. If that is presented as the 'left,' and this is the widely understood way of seeing the world, of which some fascists are in the vanguard, then for the 'enemies' (everyone who doesn't know the rules of the game) of these liberals, I do worry for the future.

eh? can you be a bit clearer please - I've no idea what point you are making here.

please say more about the politics of solidarity - I hope this means more than just liking stuff on FB.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Absolutely. Someone PM'd me to thank me for sticking up for them when they were getting dogpiled by dozens of users. He mentioned that they all use the same sarcastic phrases and canned responses to shut down conversation, like they all drank the same cool aid.

If I had to guess I'd imagine their worldview is formed through the internet and that whole online culture wars thing. Maybe a splash of student politics too. In the process they've become so polarised that everyone is the enemy and even conversation is threatening.

tumblr.

 

[kabbes]

If you’re a minority who genuinely wants to gain mainstream acceptance, you don’t do that by attacking and vilifying the very people you want to accept you. And nobody is stupid enough to think otherwise. Which makes me question the actual motives of the people AllEternalsHeck is coming into contact with.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

If you’re a minority who genuinely wants to gain mainstream acceptance, you don’t do that by attacking and vilifying the very people you want to accept you. And nobody is stupid enough to think otherwise. Which makes me question the actual motives of the people AllEternalsHeck is coming into contact with.

It felt like the motives were to feel superior, to enjoy bullying and excluding others. With a handy built in defence that it's not really abuse because they are fighting oppression. I just got the feeling that type of environment provides cover for some really toxic people.

There seems quite a big element of being part of the gang. All you have to do is say you identify as non binary or you're bi and you're both accepted and one of the oppressed now. Instantly, the straights are your oppressor.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

tumblr.

I'd say so yeah. I've never used Tumblr and always thought its reputation was a bit overblown. But having just argued with literally hundreds of people who are the perfect Tumblr stereotype I'm not so sure now.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I'm bored with the discussion tbf, it's basically the new white liberal common sense now. With the attendent sanitised racism that such a politics covers.

especially if you're mixed race, or on the peripheries of whiteness (like myself in the second case...)

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

I used to defend liberals quite a bit. Not necessarily their ideas, but their right to hold those ideas and the concept that their ideas do have some value and are no threat to my own more socialist positions. Definitely I'd protect them against attacks from the right. Just over the last year or so I've grown to loath liberals with a burning passion. Gradual build up. I won't defend them and we are nowhere near the same side.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I used to defend liberals quite a bit. Not necessarily their ideas, but their right to hold those ideas and the concept that their ideas do have some value and are no threat to my own more socialist positions. Definitely I'd protect them against attacks from the right. Just over the last year or so I've grown to loath liberals with a burning passion. Gradual build up. I won't defend them and we are nowhere near the same side.

But then you have the liberal socialist.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

But then you have the liberal socialist.

I've never heard of a liberal socialist, not a contradiction in terms?

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

A quick Google and that doesn't look like socialism to me

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I've never heard of a liberal socialist, not a contradiction in terms?

The majority of the media savvy uk left.

*strokes beard* I said i was out of here.

 

[Shechemite]

As has been observed on this thread and others, identity politics isn’t really about politics - it’s a means to avoid growing up; to maintain a victim/entitlement adolescent mindset into adulthood

 

[seventh bullet]

that was my question? I didn't say you were threatening, I was asking what do you mean in that post? I'm none the wiser yet.


eh? can you be a bit clearer please - I've no idea what point you are making here.

please say more about the politics of solidarity - I hope this means more than just liking stuff on FB.

People working/fighting/arguing/supporting each other for common aims, a united purpose.

I am not on FB, so don't know what that is like.

Also if you're talking about Maoism in a UK context I am not sure how relevant to the w/c any fight for control between left groups is. Not at all, I'd say.

 

[krtek a houby]

As has been observed on this thread and others, identity politics isn’t really about politics - it’s a means to avoid growing up; to maintain a victim/entitlement adolescent mindset into adulthood

I find (not here) that's a comment that oft comes from the right; when dismissing those that don't follow their repugnant views. But I'm still none the wiser as to what it's meant by vitims?

 

[Shechemite]

I find (not here) that's a comment that oft comes from the right; when dismissing those that don't follow their repugnant views. But I'm still none the wiser as to what it's meant by vitims?

What’s your point/question?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'm bored with the discussion tbf, it's basically the new white liberal common sense now. With the attendent sanitised racism that such a politics covers.

especially if you're mixed race, or on the peripheries of whiteness (like myself in the second case...)

Can you expand a bit on what you mean this please dialectician ?

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

It sounds a bit like the general 'echo chamber' effect of things like FB are polarising debates. Do you find these sort of experiences in real life? Are lgbt /other students not involved in 'tearing that bullshit' down now?

I'd be wary of dismissing it as just facebook bullshit or whatever. I used to do the same. Anyone complained about tumble sjw's or whatever and I'd write them off as a conservative whiner who was seeking out offence over irrelevant internet nonsense.

What has changed for me is the extent this has bled over into real life. Quick example: I have an ex classmate on fb who lives a life of privilege that I am frankly quite jealous of. Really nice apartment, trendy restaurants several evenings a week, and she doesn't work so I'm not sure how she affords it (I assume parents). She considers herself 'left wing' and 'really political' but this takes the form of like green party liberalism and lifestyle issues like veganism. The other day on fb she was complaining about being sick of white men in positions of power. I get the feeling that she doesn't have an issue with the positions of power per se but wants to see her own identity group in them.

I have very little respect for that because I had to balance my degree with working 3 full days a week in a call-centre and was still poverty-line poor. Struggling to heat my flat in the winter poor. Frankly the white men chat can fuck off coming from a white woman so privileged.

So sure this is facebook but it's someone I know and it does affect how they behave in local politics etc. I find most students are just normal people but the ones who consider themselves 'political' are usually into liberal politics rather than anything which challenges systems of inequality. They'll be complaining about microaggressions not protesting welfare cuts or volunteering at foodbanks.

 

[Athos]

Nope. Fucking cop out. It's about you and your projections/imagination/expectations. Yet you don't have a clue who i am and what i do or not. Blame me. No problem.You poor thing.

No, it's about shit politics.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

can you be a bit clearer please - I've no idea what point you are making here.

please say more about the politics of solidarity - I hope this means more than just liking stuff on FB.

Can you expand a bit on what you mean this please dialectician ?

I'd be genuinely interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this. You both post a lot but mostly it's picking people up on details or asking for things to be explained further. Not so much giving your own opinions. I feel like there's a subtext that you're not really agreeing but you're not saying it explicitly or providing counter points.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'd be genuinely interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this. You both post a lot but mostly it's picking people up on details or asking for things to be explained further. Not so much giving your own opinions. I feel like there's a subtext that you're not really agreeing but you're not saying it explicitly or providing counter points.

1. You'd like to hear our thoughts on what exactly? You joined the thread on page 8, the discussion has done loop after loop. Both Fod and I have posted our opinions, where relevant and when we have chosen to.
2. I don't post a lot at all actually. I've made a few posts in the last couple of days, that's not a lot at all.
3. What is wrong with asking for clarification when I feel that someone has made a statement or point that isn't clear?
4. Like with any discussion, it is up to me to evaluate whether or not I want/need to get involved. Not countering someone's points is neither a sign of agreement, nor disagreement. Sometimes I think the point has already been made, sometimes I don't think it's important, sometimes I can't be asked to go over the same ground again, sometimes life gets in the way/I make a choice to do other things.

 

[seventh bullet]

Meant to add - what useful things are you doing in tearing bullshit down? and which bullshit are you talking about - is this just FB bullshit?

I was referring to higher education and its access. The deliberate building of barriers and the ways in which inequality and power are reproduced, and the crap liberal politics it produces among the middle class. Opening it up, making it all ours is one of the best class-based demands that could be made in this society before even wanting to build a new one. Not a politics done from universities, but a politics that takes these institutions into our hands. Everyone.

 

[AllEternalsHeck]

1. You'd like to hear our thoughts on what exactly? You joined the thread on page 8, the discussion has done loop after loop. Both Fod and I have posted our opinions, where relevant and when we have chosen to.
2. I don't post a lot at all actually. I've made a few posts in the last couple of days, that's not a lot at all.
3. What is wrong with asking for clarification when I feel that someone has made a statement or point that isn't clear?
4. Like with any discussion, it is up to me to evaluate whether or not I want/need to get involved. Not countering someone's points is neither a sign of agreement, nor disagreement. Sometimes I think the point has already been made, sometimes I don't think it's important, sometimes I can't be asked to go over the same ground again, sometimes life gets in the way/I make a choice to do other things.

Fair enough it's up to you. I got the feeling you are fairly supportive of identity politics. Or not as critical as most people in the thread. Perhaps a bit more willing to defend or downplay some of the excesses? But I could be reading that wrong because I haven't seen any clear statements of what you believe. Where FOD asked 'if this is just FB bullshit' it is posed as a question but feels like they're trying to downplay it a bit. That sort of thing.

 

[killer b]

I'm not sure it's sensible to talk about 'just' FB bullshit anymore tbh. Like it or not (I don't), Facebook is one of the primary ways people communicate about and form their political views now. Just FB bullshit is pretty much everything.

 

[krtek a houby]

What’s your point/question?

Well, who's avoiding growing up and maintaining victimhood,is what I'm asking.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not sure it's sensible to talk about 'just' FB bullshit anymore tbh. Like it or not (I don't), Facebook is one of the primary ways people communicate about and form their political views now. Just FB bullshit is pretty much everything.

Half the population don’t use Facebook at all.

More Than Half of UK Population Will Log on to Facebook This Year - eMarketer

Of the other half, I’m not sure how many use it for anything other than the occasional social event.

It’s big news but certainly not the be all and end all.

 

[killer b]

But it's influence goes way beyond it's user base, as people who engage with politics through facebook will take what they've learned there to other forums of discussion (the pub / workplace / dinnerparty / whatever).

 

[Treacle Toes]

Fair enough it's up to you. I got the feeling you are fairly supportive of identity politics. Or not as critical as most people in the thread.

I am pretty sure there are areas of this conversation where I do not agree with others on the thread. I also think that depending on who you are and what your experiences are has an impact on where you draw the battle lines around this issue. I would not describe myself as supportive of 'identity politics' however I have clearly stated numerous times that I think there are issues and contexts in which 'centring' one aspect of identity/experience and organising around it is alright with me. The beginning of this thread explored numerous examples of that over and over again (civil rights/feminist agendas/LGBT liberation etc). I shouldn't need to repeat any of that. Another example; people having 'safe spaces' doesn't bother me in the slightest, I don't believe that people wanting space/time to explore certain issues on their own terms is necessarily detrimental to anyone or anything...what becomes action as a result of that is the rub isn't it?...equally of course if that's all people do, sit around putting the world to rights but never actually doing jack shit. Telling everyone else they're wrong but not actually getting out and showing others how they think it can be done. Or if they become too blinkered and entrenched( see the radical bookfair thread for a good example of this happening).

Perhaps a bit more willing to defend or downplay some of the excesses? But I could be reading that wrong because I haven't seen any clear statements of what you believe.

What are the excesses IYO? How can you accuse me of being willing to 'downplay' the excesses but admit you haven't actually read where I stand on this issue? This is what I mean about people projecting in an earlier post. It's also a really loaded accusation as it positions you as an authority, you get to dictate what the excesses are and if I disagree with you I am somehow simply downplaying them/not having a valid opinion.

Where FOD asked 'if this is just FB bullshit' it is posed as a question but feels like they're trying to downplay it a bit. That sort of thing.

I think her question is a valid one. I think it's important to think about how much of this is contained in certain contexts like FB groups or twitter wars and how much of it trickles into the mainstream.

Going back slightly to your post about a FB friend of yours. Would you describe that as an example of the 'excesses' of IDPing? I wouldn't. She sounds like someone who hasn't worked out her own perspective in a meaningful way, more relying on generalisation/universal truisms (men get better opportunities/jobs). It seems to me that she hasn't reflected on her own position and advantages, class. I am interested as to what you did to challenge her or how you feel you could challenge that kind of conflation.