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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

I don’t think I have been ‘massively unfair’ to Hall. I’d accept that his ideas have become subsequently bent by others but my post was about where cultural theory and identity politics emerged from in the UK. In the case of Hall not only did his work at the Birmingham Centre for contemporary cultural studies introduce the concept of intersectionality, but his work was so important precisely because it introduced ideas of gender, race and so on into the field of enquiry.

The Guardian characterised him as the ‘godfather of multiculturalism’ and whilst you are right that his work was much more nuanced than that of some of those who cite him - and it is true that Thompson’s central point that the working class is present and can act in the making of its history is present in his work - you cannot understand how identity politics developed in the UK without examining the contribution of Stuart Hall.

I think you also underplay how influential the ideas of the NLR were. Although small and academic they were plugged into the heights of the labour movement, commentariat and cultural elites. Their ideas travelled far wider than their circle.

Finally, my post attempted to periodise the NLR and the thinkers around it. The realisation that the Soviet Union was a state dictatorship on behalf of the proletariat and that Stalin was persecuting Marxists and others and building socialism in one country is critical to understanding where attempts to rethink left politics and the turn towards culture and identity came from.

It is inarguable - and I know you don’t argue this - that the development of this thinking through the late 1960’s and into the 1970’s, as Britain began to deindustrialise and the cracks began to appear in the economic leverage of the unions, led the sections of the left away from the working class and the concept of change through the assertion of class economic interests and towards identity and culture as he primary locations of struggle.

I'm afraid to my mind that arguing

Their experience of the CP and Stalinism led them to attempt to rethink left/Marxist politics and coincided with an academic movement that questioned linear empirical history and focusssed instead on language and power and privilege within texts.
5 years later Stuart Hall's introduction in NLR condemned all 'top-down' politics and told us all to look for resistance in cultural identity.

Is a result of that later bending of his thoughts and ideas then because it bears no real relation to what he ever argued or put forward himself whilst misreading what the people who split from the CPGB in 56 were up to (the rethinking of marx that the key players in that group engaged in came much later in the mid-late 70s and for some never came at all - for them it was just simply that the CPGB as an organisation was no longer fit for purpose and labour would have to do instead) and then confusing that 56-61 period with an academic movement that only came to light in anglophone countries at the very very earliest a whole quarter of a century later.

Hall's work at the BCCS wasn't really 'looking for resistance in cultural identity' (and most of his actual theoretical work rather than what his real job of running the centre was done in the mid-late-70s). The BCCS did not introduce the idea of intersectionality into this country (no matter what Suzanne Moore says) - again look at the chronology. Nor did they introduce the ideas of gender and race into the field of inquiry - after being set up by the most old fashioned of the 56 group (Hoggart) they simply did what their name suggests - that is, look at popular culture. This meant things like viewing habits, youth sub-cultures, attitudes towards work etc Hall took over in 68 and attempted to widen the ways in which they do this by introducing the ideas of Lucien Goldman (quickly discarded) then people that the NLR were then starting to translate and publish (Adorno, Gramscio etc - rememberhe has left the NLR a year after being made the first editor) but still covering the same an similar topics. The idea simply being that 'signifying practices' - culture - told us wider things about society as whole, how changes in the formation of capital relations, how commodities are consumed are being experienced and then, in turn reformulated. That reformulation can act as resistance is as far as Hall ever went - he never argued that it was central, or unrelated to material conditions (the opposite in fact) or leading or the only place it can occur. If you read back those works up until policing the crisis the only resistance they identified really was a lack of identification with either school or work. I think you've blown up their work into something it wasn't.

Gender and Race were always parts of the fields of enquiry if only as absences - and it was the failure to deal with these absences and the discriminations that were built on them by the state and its' institutions, by society and its institutions (chiefly the labour movement) that lead to the 81 riots and scarman report that sanctioned the top-downstate led multi-culturalism that has developed into present day identity politics. That's where Identity politics in this country came from - not from a handful of academics writing about the way young girls -de-code teenage magazines for a slightly wider group of academics. For my thoughts on that see this.

NLR has never had any real influence beyond marxist specialists. Perry Anderson has always been quite unapologetic about this and often wrote about this being the idea after he used his personal fortune to buy the mag out form the original 56ers and change direction quite sharply - this was the basis for his falling out with E.P Thompson for example. The mags content from anderson's takeover basically had two main themes, very rarely meeting. One was the translation of then cutting edge continental marxism (althusser etc) and the construction of a tradition called 'western marxism' through the translation and re-publication of old pieces from people like Korsch and Lukacs. The 2nd was the political bits and it mostly consisted of regurgitation of third-worldist cheerleading wirth little or no critical reflection on why each third world issue they concentrated on inevitably went a very different way than they had suggested it would. Neither of these had much real world purchase. Anderson at this time actually wrote a book about 'western marxism' in which he described how it was the end result of a separation of marxist theorists from political action, a retreat into the academy - in a very different way from how Kautsky, Lenin, Luxemburg etc had managed to play both roles. He himself wrote the story of his and the NLR's own political irrelevance.

The only thing i can think of that has much significance was Tom Nairn's work on Scotland and Empire which has had an influence on left-scottish nationalists but the vast majority of this work has taken place in his books, not in NLR. NLR did play a role in the three-way-debate between him Thompson and Anderson in the 60s and 70s which helped spark his thoughts on this - but then so did socialist register and other journals - and i think, at the time Nairn's position was the exact opposite of the one he now holds and that has had influence.

You really are squashing very different things and periods together here - the late 50s and the early-mid 80s - and seeming to treat them as one moment. Those at the early end rarely if ever re-thought their views in terms of identity and those at the later end never thought in terms of relations to an international communist movement.

(I've crammed in a lot there because i don't know that i'll be around much this week)

BTW this is my fav Hall quote for those still stuck in that model of a passive w/c having their lifes beamed into their heads by mass media and who try to use Hall and Gramsci to defend that nonsense:

There is no more reductionist, instrumentalist, class-delusionary position than to assume that the extraordinary complexities of the society in which we live are really held together by the cement of the media’s messages. As crude as this may sound, a large part of the Marxist literature which tries to explain how Western societies are held together consensually—how the consensus is constructed, why it is that the working class is not revolutionary, and why it is that history is not following the punctuating rhythm of class struggle—relies on that position. Hegemony is not ideological mystification.
 
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Yep, the ludicrous idea that the media determines attitudes and culture has always baffled me, notwithstanding the crude bludgeoning of advertising...when it is surely obvious that the media simply reflects cultures and, in the case of wc expression, co-opts and sanitises it for middle class consumers.
 
Of course they do, they just ignore whoever it is convenient to ignore and point to whoever it is convenient to point to.

There was one thread on that group that I wanted to quote verbatim, but I just searched for it and sadly it looks like its been deleted.

The OP posts up this awful article written by a black women called 'Intersectionality aint for white women' which said 'Let me be perfectly clear: Intersectionality has never been, nor will it ever be, for white women. Why? Because white women have never carried the weight of having to choose between their race or their gender when both mark them a visible target for oppression.'

I said this article was reductive nonsense and ignored the multiple intersecting identities that result in marginalisation and discrimination. In defence of this I cite none other than Kimberely Crenshaw, the individual who coined the term in the late 1980s:

Intersectionality is an analytic sensibility, a way of thinking about identity and its relationship to power. Originally articulated on behalf of black women, the term brought to light the invisibility of many constituents within groups that claim them as members, but often fail to represent them. Intersectional erasures are not exclusive to black women. People of color within LGBTQ movements; girls of color in the fight against the school-to-prison pipeline; women within immigration movements; trans women within feminist movements; and people with disabilities fighting police abuse — all face vulnerabilities that reflect the intersections of racism, sexism, class oppression, transphobia, able-ism and more. Intersectionality has given many advocates a way to frame their circumstances and to fight for their visibility and inclusion.

Opinion | Why intersectionality can’t wait

And yet, I was criticised, again by white women, for 'decentering blackness' - even when I quoted the black feminist who coined the term intersectionality! These sort of people are just impossible to talk to.
 
Very annoying as Krenshaw's 1989 work is really very good. Worth reading if only to see how sensible it is and its distance from what claims the title now.
I’ve never read that before, so thanks.

Krenshaw is quite specific, isn’t she? Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to to be focussed on the fact that if you sit on an intersection— and black women is her example — you get frozen out of being considered for discrimination at all, and this in multiple different ways. So if you want to claim race discrimination, you get told that you don’t represent “black” and if you want to claim sex discrimination you get told you don’t represent “women”.

This seems to be a key finding (starting from “Black women are regarded...”)

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It is indeed very sensible and unrecognisable from the kind of hierarchy of privilege now being constructed.
 

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Personal anecdote here. I'm on a fb group for fans of a band. Membership is pretty middle class hipster type (click on a random profile and they'll likely be a student). Everyone just posts about the band so who cares.

Today there's an 800 reply shitfest because someone is sick of all the 'tiresome straights' and wants an lgbt breakaway group. It's already the most liberal lefty lgtb friendly community I've ever seen. I assume somebody has made a non lgbt friendly comment somewhere and this is the reaction.

Any time someone replies saying they think it's shitty to call out all straight people and splinter the community they are dogpiled with sarcastic comments like 'oh it must be so hard being straight'. Or 'when an oppressed class speaks you listen'.

I clicked on the OP profile and of course she's a middle class as fuck graduate of a very posh university. Boggles the mind. I don't think having an lgbt space is a bad thing but this is all communicated in aggressive terms that straight people are the oppressors and queers are the oppressed. Tons of stuff about how cishets need to shut up and how much better the new community will be without them. It's possibly the whitest most middle class online community I've ever seen (insert joke about urban) so it's a bit rich.

And this is just a page for sharing memes and chat about a band. I'm not involved in the political sphere but a lot of these people are and frankly fuck getting into that if this is the standard of discourse.

It's not like I feel I'm experiencing discrimination for being straight, I just think these people are dickheads who promote bad feeling and exclusionary communities. They all consider themselves left wing (and anyone who disagrees right wing) but left wing politics for them starts and ends with issues of individual identity and expression. It's actually quite annoying because I liked the solidarity in the group of all loving the same band but oh well.
 
I just put this on urban because I thought it's a waste of time arguing with them... then spent the whole time arguing with them anyway. I don't expect this post to contribute much to moving the discussion forward etc but I've spent a few hours being called a scumbag and would like to vent a little in this space. Some choice quotes:

Marginalised people don't owe politeness to the groups that oppress them

It's okay to exclude people if they have institutional power

Thanks for your opinion random man

*picture of a mug that says 'heterosexual tears' on it*

Loads of stuff about fuck all straights and about white tears (written by white people though). Clicking on a few profiles these are law students and various middle class professionals etc. There is a general agreement that lgbt are an oppressed class and straights are the oppressor. Therefore, it is justified to be as rude as you like to any straight person, it is literally impossible for a group of lgbt people to bully a straight person, and so on.

Some people were clearly having the time of their lives piling on with sarcastic comments to anyone who questioned this. One guy mentioned he has mental health issues and feels he isn't necessarily more privileged, and was mocked quite brutally because he's still an oppressor and how ridiculous he could believe otherwise. I was told I directly contribute to oppression by being straight. These are some of the rudest group of bullies I've seen online, they way they speak to people they've deemed their oppressors is insane.

I mentioned that a posh university student who identifies as bi can still be more privileged in many ways than a working class cis-het guy, so it's not fair to lump identities together like that without a class analysis. Mocked for 'making it all about me' and told to educate myself. I'm doing a social science PhD I've read enough books thanks and I still think this is really shit analysis. Anyway they all hate me on there now and I feel alienated from the group so yay for neoliberal idpol I guess.
 
A glimpse of Urban's future.
no it isnt. no young people join urban. if they did then maybe. the share your aches and pains thread is a glimpse of urbans future.
Personal anecdote here. I'm on a fb group for fans of a band. Membership is pretty middle class hipster type (click on a random profile and they'll likely be a student). Everyone just posts about the band so who cares.

Today there's an 800 reply shitfest because someone is sick of all the 'tiresome straights' and wants an lgbt breakaway group. It's already the most liberal lefty lgtb friendly community I've ever seen. I assume somebody has made a non lgbt friendly comment somewhere and this is the reaction.

Any time someone replies saying they think it's shitty to call out all straight people and splinter the community they are dogpiled with sarcastic comments like 'oh it must be so hard being straight'. Or 'when an oppressed class speaks you listen'.

I clicked on the OP profile and of course she's a middle class as fuck graduate of a very posh university. Boggles the mind. I don't think having an lgbt space is a bad thing but this is all communicated in aggressive terms that straight people are the oppressors and queers are the oppressed. Tons of stuff about how cishets need to shut up and how much better the new community will be without them. It's possibly the whitest most middle class online community I've ever seen (insert joke about urban) so it's a bit rich.

And this is just a page for sharing memes and chat about a band. I'm not involved in the political sphere but a lot of these people are and frankly fuck getting into that if this is the standard of discourse.

It's not like I feel I'm experiencing discrimination for being straight, I just think these people are dickheads who promote bad feeling and exclusionary communities. They all consider themselves left wing (and anyone who disagrees right wing) but left wing politics for them starts and ends with issues of individual identity and expression. It's actually quite annoying because I liked the solidarity in the group of all loving the same band but oh well.
sounds fucked up... this kind of behaviour does seem to occur primarily amongst (young) students...there used to be a diss of describing stupid politics like this out as "6th form politics", seems still appropriate. Is that a mis-characterisation or are there many older people who think like this?

Whats the argument still going on about anyway AllEternalsHeck? Have they made their own breakaway facebook group or not? If not what are they waiting for?
 
no it isnt. no young people join urban. if they did then maybe. the share your aches and pains thread is a glimpse of urbans future.

sounds fucked up... this kind of behaviour does seem to occur primarily amongst (young) students...there used to be a diss of describing stupid politics like this out as "6th form politics", seems still appropriate. Is that a mis-characterisation or are there many older people who think like this?

Whats the argument still going on about anyway AllEternalsHeck? Have they made their own breakaway facebook group or not? If not what are they waiting for?

Sadly, it's people old enough to know better who are bringing this shit here.
 
Some really ugly social forces may kick their doors down one day. Backed by all those enemies that might once have been friends.

Eh who are you talking about? I expect this vague shit from Athos-man-of-sneery-misery and mystery but come on... Just because people don't spend their days outlining the everyday things family/work/community/friends they do to address social inequality, fight for social justice and make a difference doesn't mean people are stupid/oblivious/unprepared. The us and them narrative around here is fucking shit given those claiming the 'us' position are not being asked to detail those things, they are just assuming 'power/righteousness' by default.
 
Not our job to educate them etc

No, they'll hide behind their own privileged access to formal education and act as gatekeepers to a club most people who come into contact with end up being alienated and disgusted by.

They could do something useful for a change and help the rest of us tear that bullshit down.
 
Eh who are you talking about? I expect this vague shit from Athos-man-of-sneery-misery and mystery but come on... Just because people don't spend their days outlining the everyday things family/work/community/friends they do to address social inequality, fight for social justice and make a difference doesn't mean people are stupid/oblivious/unprepared. The us and them narrative around here is fucking shit given those claiming the 'us' position are not being asked to detail those things, they are just assuming 'power/righteousness' by default.

Way to misinterpret my post. You are one of the reasons I avoid this place, to be frank.
 
Way to misinterpret my post. You are one of the reasons I avoid this place, to be frank.

Thanks. :(

I didn't misinterpret on purpose and actually, the fact you pin that shit on me shows you know fuck all about who I am and what I do, imo proving my point. Also, given I don't post much at all I call bullshit on you blaming me.

Thanks again and i'll not engage with you anymore as your projections onto me and of me clearly ruin your day. :thumbs:
 
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no it isnt. no young people join urban. if they did then maybe. the share your aches and pains thread is a glimpse of urbans future.

sounds fucked up... this kind of behaviour does seem to occur primarily amongst (young) students...there used to be a diss of describing stupid politics like this out as "6th form politics", seems still appropriate. Is that a mis-characterisation or are there many older people who think like this?

Whats the argument still going on about anyway AllEternalsHeck? Have they made their own breakaway facebook group or not? If not what are they waiting for?

They are mostly early to mid twenties I'd say. Some into their thirties and some younger in maybe late teens. It does feel like a young group to me in my early 30s but they're not all young.

They've made the new group already but it was invite by PM only, so only those in the in-group are allowed. I've no issues if anyone wants an lgbt space, if I'd read a post just mentioning an lgbt group I'd have scrolled past barely noticing. It's all these middle class sheltered arseholes describing themselves as being in an oppressed group because they're bi or whatever.

I tried to talk about social class privilege and they say that's a separate issue. They have relegated class to just another identity, to be analysed separately on the wheel of oppression. It's actually key to the discussion because this sort of idpol can only thrive in a middle class space, where everyone has a strong incentive to overlook their own privilege so they can be in the oppressed group. In 12 years of working in call-centres I never heard anyone complain about white males or cishet tears, I go into a middle class space and hear nothing else.

I also pointed out that as a sociology grad I am most offended by how they've warped intersectionality into a method for centering middle class issues. Had all these people patronisingly trying to explain it, as if the only reason I didn't agree is that I'm not educated in the concepts. Total dicks, there is just so much of: 'no your job is to listen. we don't owe our oppressors explanations', so you can't even have a chat about it really.
 
Just another little example of the sort of reply you'll get for questioning idpol

What I don't understand about cis hets is how y'all think everything has to be about/for you. You literally have the whole world, all of media, everything catered to you. The one time something is not for you, you throw a fit.
 
When it is wielded as a weapon like that it is used in the exact same way that the same sort of person in a different time and/or place would have used the precepts of religious orthodoxy.
 
When it is wielded as a weapon like that it is used in the exact same way that the same sort of person in a different time and/or place would have used the precepts of religious orthodoxy.

Absolutely. Someone PM'd me to thank me for sticking up for them when they were getting dogpiled by dozens of users. He mentioned that they all use the same sarcastic phrases and canned responses to shut down conversation, like they all drank the same cool aid.

If I had to guess I'd imagine their worldview is formed through the internet and that whole online culture wars thing. Maybe a splash of student politics too. In the process they've become so polarised that everyone is the enemy and even conversation is threatening.
 
Absolutely. Someone PM'd me to thank me for sticking up for them when they were getting dogpiled by dozens of users. He mentioned that they all use the same sarcastic phrases and canned responses to shut down conversation, like they all drank the same cool aid.

If I had to guess I'd imagine their worldview is formed through the internet and that whole online culture wars thing. Maybe a splash of student politics too. In the process they've become so polarised that everyone is the enemy and even conversation is threatening.

Yes, I get this impression too. They become incapable of engaging with anyone in a different way, someone is either a pal or the cause of everything that is wrong with the world with no area in between.
 
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