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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

Danczuk is not amused.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...rmer-rochdale-mp-sir-cyril-smith-abuse-claims

Ministers have been accused of ‘sitting on their hands’ instead of investigating claims Sir Cyril Smith sexually abused a string of young boys.
Rochdale MP Simon Danczuk said the government should be probing a possible cover-up of allegations against the Liberal.
His criticisms came as the Crown Prosecution Service finally recovered its file on the case, dating back to the 1960s.
Three more victims have come forward in the last 24 hours to say they were molested by Sir Cyril – taking the tally into double figures. Only one has so far gone to police.
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After mounting public pressure, the CPS confirmed it has now recovered the original allegations from the time.
A spokesman said: “We have located a file in relation to allegations dating back to the 1960s and we are now looking into its contents.”
Mr Danczuk has written to Keir Starmer, the current director of public prosecutions, demanding to know when the contents of the file will be published. He used a House of Commons debate to demand ministers investigate a range of allegations made by victims and former police officers. Home Office minister Jeremy Brown said victims should speak to the police, while anyone with concerns about the police should speak to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
He did not address the question of a cover up or any potential government investigation.
Speaking after the debate Mr Danczuk said: “I am appalled at the response by the Home Office minister. All evidence seems to be pointing towards a cover-up of Cyril Smith’s abuse of children. Ministers should not be sitting on their hands and doing nothing.
“They must act to make sure that victims do not have to go through the painful experience of a second cover-up of abuse.”
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Wilf said:
Don't know owt about Danczuk, but he's also getting stuck into his fellow Labour member Colin Lambert (current Council Leader) about the wider Rochdale abuse issue.
http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/new...8/mp-danczuk-lays-into-council-leader-lambert

No idea about the background between them, what's going on in the Rochdale Labour Party, but on the face of it you have to be slightly impressed that Danczuk hasn't taken a simple partisan approach. Of course it would be hard not to be critical of Rochdale Council on this.
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He hates lib-dems, really really hates them. That's pretty much all i know about him.
 
butchersapron said:
He hates lib-dems, really really hates them. That's pretty much all i know about him.
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Yes, Rochdale Constituency has been a Lib-Lab marginal ever since Smith. The Council has also alternated between Lab control and a Lib-Con coalition (though from memory there was also some kind of Lab-Con period). Perfect conditions for personal grudge politics.
 
I don't know much about Danczuk either, but what I did notice a couple of years ago when (I think) he first stood in Rochdale was there seemed to be a bit of a smear campaign concerning him leaving his wife for another woman or somesuch conducted against him by not only Lib Dems but a fair few from Labour as well. The impression I got was that it seemed to be because he was not a part of their glee club kinda thing. As yopu'll have probably noticed, Rochdale's a weird place with clandestine loyalties that go back to the days of mill owners and that.
 
Now that they've "recovered" the file, I'm looking forward to the explanation for why it gathered dust in a safe instead of being used for investigation and prosecution.
 
Well the independent and the welsh councils have done sweet FA with their recently found Jillings reports so best not hold your breath.....
 
Just wondering, given that we're 56 pages into this compendium and I've only had a chance to refer to it occasionally, is the major high profile pimlico centred, reality-TV, slipper endowed, spider's web of a theory still holding water or have the population as a whole taken a step back from that rather totalitarian interpretation?
 
It was never exactly watertight, and the only thing to emerge since that could possibly be linked is the interview a victim gave to sky a while back, but we dont actually know if its the very same story since there were no names or location hints in that.

I get the impression that my own stance on it isnt what quite a lot of people wanted to hear, there remains quite an appetite to see this stuff further explored. But I cant do anything with it without new stuff emerging, and I think its reasonable to treat the original media source with a reasonable amount of caution. Not least because there may have been several forces at work, and it is certainly an area where things are complicated both by issues relating to homosexuality and 'rent boys'.
 
Diamond said:
Just wondering, given that we're 56 pages into this compendium and I've only had a chance to refer to it occasionally, is the major high profile pimlico centred, reality-TV, slipper endowed, spider's web of a theory still holding water or have the population as a whole taken a step back from that rather totalitarian interpretation?
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I'd say that on balance there's a hell of a lot more smoke now than when the thread started, with multiple high profile examples coming to light (mostly the dead ones), and a recurent theme of long term cover ups happening whenever complaints have been made / investigations ordered either from central government or at a more local government level.

Despite the apparent Lord McAlpine red herring, there's a hell of a lot of the rumours that are turning out to have been true - eg Cyril Smith's long rumoured inch thick police file stamped with a DPP note 'prosecution not in the public interest', that was alleged to have been sent down to London and never been seen again... which has now been found by the CPS.

Or the 5-6 examples I gave from a nick davies article of the stories of the whistle blowers who'd tried to investigate allegations of widespread abuse, and had all faced massive institutional barriers to getting anything to happen about it, and been sacked for the privilige, despite uncovering dozens of abuse cases going back decades in most cases.

Common themes in many of these cases also seem to relate to masonic influence in the areas, though this is not to say that the masons as a whole are in on anything, but the connections people are able to make within such organisations would certainly aid significantly in any coverups. For example in the welsh situation, one of the main perpetrators seems to have been the son of a Lord who also happened to be the head mason in North Wales for 40 years, and several of the whistle blowers in Nick Davies article mention the local government, judiciary etc in that area being heavily Masonic, and them feeling or hinting at this being a major factor in them not being able to push an investigation through. Plus theres the welsh abuse victim and now councillor who's stated that he believes all the people on his list are also masons, and called for this aspect of the situation to be fully investigated.

As for the purves in pimlico. There have been allegations from a Welsh abuse victim about minibuses being used to take boys down to sex parties with upper class old men in London, as well as old scallywag statements about taking 2 boys individually to london and them both pointing out the same building as being the one they'd been taken to.

There's also several of the investigations into widespread abuse in various parts of the UK over the last 30 years that clearly show peadophiles acting in widespread networks, using central hubs to gain access to kids to abuse. Eg pretty much the first investigation that really chased down the networks in Bristol in the mid 90s resulted in the successful prosecution of 60 people all of whom were connected with one house that had been used as a central point for the abuse to take place over a couple of decades IIRC. That's 60 they were able to investigate before the investigation got shut down / had its resources withdrawn to the point where they couldn't then investigate the wider network beyond that 60, which could well have uncovered other networks.

http://mystoryaboutsocialservices.w...-story-of-colin-smart-copied-from-nick-davis/

There's certainly a lot of evidence of widespread long term cover ups of widespread abuse cases in many different areas of the country. What exactly the motivations for these cover ups is / was, and if they're linked or if it's just an institutional reaction to such allegations to attempt to cover them up and hope they go away is less clear.
 
MadCatLady said:
Well the independent and the welsh councils have done sweet FA with their recently found Jillings reports so best not hold your breath.....
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How do you know the independent aren't doing anything with the report? If they are I'm sure they want to get it right.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
caoineadh7 said:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/282958/Malcolm-King-s-terror-as-perv-sex-ring-cuts-brakes/

THE whistle-blower who exposed the Welsh children’s home sex abuse scandal has cheated death in a suspect car smash after his brakes failed.


Police have seized care boss Malcolm King’s motor to see if it was sabotaged.
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I don't see the fuss really. The idea that cars are fixed via the Boston Brakes or similar methods is a theory about conspiracies and therefore complete bollocks.

It's good the matter has gone to the police though. There's no question marks over any of their behaviour in all these affairs.
Imagine if someone like the car manufacture or had been asked to do an assessment. the mind boggles. I'm sure the police will report that nothing is wrong at all, and we will all sleep better for it.
 
I'm sorry but, on reflection, this story is starting to resemble the incrementally fantastical and paranoid satanic ritual abuse scare of the 1980s more than anything else.
 
I suppose one of the really interesting aspects of this is that the proposed paedophile ring may have had one or more members of the Tory establishment in its midst.

The point being is that the curiousity of the public is animated principally by political concerns rather than the damage suffered by the victims. Consider this, which other grand child abuse conspiracy has predominated media attention to this degree in living memory?

Or to put it another way, why did many people feel they were let down by either Stephen Messham or the BBC when it was revealed that a fundamental mistake was made in their initial report?

Messham was abused. By tory or any other political stripe matters not a jot.
 
Diamond said:
The point being is that the curiousity of the public is animated principally by political concerns rather than the damage suffered by the victims. Consider this, which other grand child abuse conspiracy has predominated media attention to this degree in living memory?
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Only a subsection are motivated by the political dimension, so I would state the case more broadly as being powered by an interest in anyone famous, especially when they fall from grace and the scandal is dirty. This isnt a new phenomenon, although it has extra legs now due to the ubiquity of the internet compared to scandals from the pre-net era.

The fallout from operation Ore was the closest example, although it was pre-twitter there was certainly a fascination when celebrities such as rock stars were implicated. And of course there is the US example of Michael Jackson.
 
Nor does it mean that people "don't care" unless it's someone famous*. It's a simple case of desensitisation. There's something about human psychology that exhausts emotive outrage for something that's been witnessed time and again - perhaps because it didn't do any good the first time around. A new angle gives a new lever, and a new possibility for radical action. Vocal protest then feels like it may not be barking into the wind.

*Not that anyone's claimed that on here
 
Diamond said:
I suppose one of the really interesting aspects of this is that the proposed paedophile ring may have had one or more members of the Tory establishment in its midst.

The point being is that the curiousity of the public is animated principally by political concerns rather than the damage suffered by the victims. Consider this, which other grand child abuse conspiracy has predominated media attention to this degree in living memory?

Or to put it another way, why did many people feel they were let down by either Stephen Messham or the BBC when it was revealed that a fundamental mistake was made in their initial report?

Messham was abused. By tory or any other political stripe matters not a jot.
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Do you think the victims just want the dead abusers to be investigated, or maybe that they'd like everyone and every institution involved in protecting their abusers and covering up for them over 3-4 decades to also be investigated?

IMO one of the major motivations in abuse victims coming forward is to attempt to prevent the same thing continuing to happen to others, and this can only be achieved by investigating, exposing and tackling the institutional mechanisms that existed that ensured these widespread abuses were allowed to carry on for so long in so many different areas of the country, and then be subject to a cover up of one form or another by the authorities once it is brought to their attention.

Just locking up a few scapegoated kiddie fiddlers can't be allowed to cut it this time. Those who covered up for it (for whatever reason) must be held to account as well.
 
caoineadh7 said:
Ken Livingstone claiming MI5 filmed abuse at Kincora to blackmail politicians, I also heard this happened in North Wales with foreign diplomats brought there by undercover MI6 officers. I suspect in the cold war such things went on.



http://soundcloud.com/gypsumfantastic23/ken-mi5




Kincora, all the investigations were dropped.


!
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Robin Ramsay put together a good synopsis of Kincora for Lobster, the para-politics journal. He was agnostic on the matter of filming, though, mostly because it would have been technically difficult to get decently identifiable blackmail material without a multi-camera setup, which the boys' home had no room for.
What went on in local hotel rooms is sadly probably another matter entirely. :(
 
Lord Mcalpine - The New Machiavelli: The Art of Politics in Business 1999

“Another option is for the businessperson to learn the art of dealing with the media, using all the tricks that go with that trade – such as the false defeat: when a person seems to lose, in order to gain public sympathy, or the false triumph: where a person seems to win in order to appear strong – thus giving credibility to any number of dubious propositions that person may wish to make in the future. Neither of these ploys are examples of the use of true facts, rather of false facts given to the media to chew on, much as a dog chews on a bone.

Another useful ploy is the false accusation. First, create a situation where you are wrongly accused. Then, at a convenient moment, arrange for the false accusation to be shown to be false beyond all doubt. Those who have made accusations against both the company and its management become discredited. Further accusations will then be treated with great suspicion. Always remember that people’s memories are very frail, remembering only both the high spots and the lows of a person’s career, and then seldom remembering accurately. People believe in the facts that it suits them to believe.”


Spooky.
 
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