How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[marty21]

This is one of the interesting aspects - the new generation trying to cover their own back and that of the previous one at the same time and how those agendas might clash.

Cameron will look stronger if he abandons the old tarnished tories and re-invents the party (again)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Watson has suggested May's announcement could be next stage of coverup. Strong stuff.

Not "strong", sensible. You only have to look back on scandals not given full public enquiries for similar reasons to see that anyone who believes or states that a limited enquiry will be sufficient is either disingenuous, incredibly stupid or downright deceitful.

 

[gosub]

Not at all - the waterhouse inquiry, which was the most serious type of inquiry available, was carried out in public.

The idea of a victim possibly without corroborating evidence going "blah blah is a paedo" infront of Leveson style media cove ie live streaming and tweets, it wouldn't matter if blah blah later produced evidence that proves he was tap dancing live on national television to an audience of millions at the time, blah blah is still fucked. The trial by internet thats gone on already is bad enough. Then there is the victims who may not want every one knowing they grew up in care let alone were sexually degraded

 

[butchersapron]

The idea of a victim possibly without corroborating evidence going "blah blah is a paedo" infront of Leveson style media cove ie live streaming and tweets, it wouldn't matter if blah blah later produced evidence that proves he was tap dancing live on national television to an audience of millions at the time, blah blah is still fucked. The trial by internet thats gone on already is bad enough. Then there is the victims who may not want every one knowing they grew up in care let alone were sexually degraded

That's all waffle - your claim was that public inquiries take evidence in camera as per norm - they don't.

 

[butchersapron]

Not "strong", sensible. You only have to look back on scandals not given full public enquiries for similar reasons to see that anyone who believes or states that a limited enquiry will be sufficient is either disingenuous, incredibly stupid or downright deceitful.

Yep, it's really important that people like him keep going an about possible cover-ups whether there are cover-ups being prepared or not. It's one of the few decent roles they can play.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is a theory that the security service
A) knew of the existence of the parties/proclivities and were required to cover up UK politician involvement in order to protect state from scandal, loss of public confidence in government etc
And
B) went further and used covert filming at parties (or placed orders from targets requesting tapes and pics from parties) from foreign diplomats and others they wanted to have a hold over.

Anyone else heard of this theory?

That particular theory has been around for at least 40 years (Kincora Boys' Home), and while people like Colin Wallace have come forward, they've also been comprehensively "monstered" by the media and the security services, so that their evidence isn't seen as credible.

In fact, someone mentioned the Cleveland Street scandal earlier, which has had a lot of myth about a security service cover-up, and that was over 120 years ago!

 

[gosub]

That's all waffle - your claim was that public inquiries take evidence in camera as per norm - they don't.

No, my claim was :that in wouldn't be a normal public enquiry because most of the evidence would have to be given in camera

 

[butchersapron]

No, my claim was :that in wouldn't be a normal public enquiry because most of the evidence would have to be given in camera

But it wouldn't - going on the basis of the Waterhouse Inquiry. It's a cul-de sac for now anyway.

 

[Badger Kitten]

@vp

Well yes.

It is a fairly established security service MO 101.
Set a thief to catch a thief, infiltrate networks, blackmail, give us info or we will tell people what you are, where you go, who you hang out with etc.

They did it with teh gays, the lefties, they do it with the jihadi wannabes...

 

[ViolentPanda]

But the term public enquiry is a misnoma, most of the submitions would have to be taken in camera

some submissions are in most public enquiries, but most testimony is public, and may be reported as it is taken. A private enquiry doesn't allow that, it holds all testimony until the report is issued, and it is virtually impossible to find out what (if any) testimony has been excluded. BTW, anonymity/in camera evidence is solely in a public enquiry's panel's gift.

 

[Prole]

That particular theory has been around for at least 40 years (Kincora Boys' Home), and while people like Colin Wallace have come forward, they've also been comprehensively "monstered" by the media and the security services, so that their evidence isn't seen as credible.

In fact, someone mentioned the Cleveland Street scandal earlier, which has had a lot of myth about a security service cover-up, and that was over 120 years ago!

And finally, with the whole secret structure of MI5 behind it, the Home Office should be well-informed about public figures involved in the sexual abuse of children. It is a standard intelligence tactic to use the threat of sexual scandal to bring someone politically into line. This is the sad reality of the British Establishment. Until that changes, the cover-up will remain and the scandals will continue.

AU - Whistle-blowers

 

[Badger Kitten]

Another Yes Minister quote

'the Official Secrets Act isn't to protect secrets, it is to protect officials'

God it's so depressing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The idea of a victim possibly without corroborating evidence going "blah blah is a paedo" infront of Leveson style media cove ie live streaming and tweets, it wouldn't matter if blah blah later produced evidence that proves he was tap dancing live on national television to an audience of millions at the time, blah blah is still fucked. The trial by internet thats gone on already is bad enough. Then there is the victims who may not want every one knowing they grew up in care let alone were sexually degraded

You're aware that the enquiry chairman and panel can exclude ICT (mobiles etc) if they wish? That they can exclude journos (the enquiry will still have to have an audio-visual and written record of proceedings "for posterity")?
Leveson didn't exclude anything because it wasn't in the wider interest to do so. I suspect that an abuse enquiry would find a way of blunting propagation of rumour fairly easily, either through removal or (more likely) jamming of tech, or by getting journos to sign time-limited non-disclosure agreements.

 

[Prole]

Nick Davies describing the Waterhouse Inquiry:

Now, finally, for the first time, the truth is pouring out. In a former council chamber in a small village near Chester, dozens of men and women are stepping forward to speak in public. Some are the grown-up survivors – nearly 300 of them – recalling childhoods of unmitigated violence and exploitation: “It was a completely different world… You could smell the fear… So cold, the place, so horrible”. Others are the men and women who are accused of tormenting them – 148 of them, skewered to the truth by ranks of lawyers. It is a little Nuremberg.

This is the tribunal of inquiry into abuse in children’s homes in North Wales – a unique event. This kind of hearing is one of the most powerful investigative tools at the hands of a government. It has all the powers of the High Court, to compel witnesses and demand documents, it has a budget of more than £1 million and it sits in public. In 75 years it has been used only ten times – after Aberfan and Dunblane, for example – and never before for child abuse. For eight months now, it has been unravelling one of the darkest scandals in Britain, day after day. And no one is listening.

The 32 seats which were reserved for the press strictly “on a first-come-first-served basis” are all empty. The three long rows of chairs at the back of the chamber which were reserved for the public are the same: no academic specialists, no government observers, no local authority executives or social workers attempting to learn lessons, no one at all. Around the back of the building, in a drafty portakabin, two local reporters diligently follow proceedings on a televised link and file stories for the local press, but so far as the rest of the world is concerned, the inquiry does not exist. Perhaps it offers too many horrors or too few princesses. Maybe it is too far from London or simply too close to the truth.

Nick Davies — Denial and despair in North Wales

Hardly public or well reported!

 

[Prole]

Nick Davies again:

Fleet Street routinely nurtures a crop of untold stories about powerful abusers who have evaded justice. One such is Peter Morrison, formerly the MP for Chester and the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party. Ten years ago, Chris House, the veteran crime reporter for the Sunday Mirror, twice received tip-offs from police officers who said that Morrison had been caught cottaging in public toilets with underaged boys and had been released with a caution. A less powerful man, the officers complained, would have been charged with gross indecency or an offence against children.

At the time, Chris House confronted Morrison, who used libel laws to block publication of the story. Now, Morrison is dead and cannot sue. Police last week confirmed that he had been picked up twice and never brought to trial. They added that there appeared to be no trace of either incident in any of the official records.

Nick Davies — The sheer scale of child sexual abuse in Britain

Just like Savile, and no doubt countless - protected - others, they have to die before anyone has the balls to name them.

 

[Barking_Mad]

 

[Barking_Mad]

That particular theory has been around for at least 40 years (Kincora Boys' Home), and while people like Colin Wallace have come forward, they've also been comprehensively "monstered" by the media and the security services, so that their evidence isn't seen as credible.

In fact, someone mentioned the Cleveland Street scandal earlier, which has had a lot of myth about a security service cover-up, and that was over 120 years ago!

Jeremy Thorpe, MI5, Wilson, Straw etc...

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-week...-about-his-role-in-the-jeremy-thorpe-scandal/

or the more wacky version:

http://dutroux.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03/jeremy-thorpe-stable-lad-jack-straw.html

 

[where to]

Ciaran Jones, c4 news: third person says senior Tory involved in nortg wales abuse. Speaks to c4 news tonight.

 

[butchersapron]

Mrs Justice Macur - get digging.

 

[butchersapron]

Mrs Justice Macur - get digging.

Ooh, nasty hard woman but media friendly.

 

[where to]

Mrs Justice Macur - get digging.

Keynote speaker at a conference on children and family law a month ago... in Jersey! Gift for the conspiracy theorists that one.

Edit: wonder what she said. Think Savile story was out then and bound to have been subject of discussion. I may be dismissing relevance (in the broadest sense) of this too lightly.

 

[elbows]

Infinitely more credible than, for example, some old bloke with experience of the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland.

Prosecuting QC in the case where a couple killed a 3 year old boy with salt.

Certainly familiar with the relevant subjects, for example jailing a headmaster:

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...or-sex-abuse-of-young-girls-65233-28439023/2/

Jailing Moody, Mrs Justice Dame Julia Macur told him: “In 2002 a young woman made a complaint against you. You denied it, and your good standing in the community prevented any further investigation; she was disbelieved.​

“You have now had the good sense to show your remorse by pleading guilty to that offence which was resurrected following the investigation of your further sexual offending.​

“Both victims of your indecent assaults were very young girls, and they were vulnerable. You abused your position of trust​

​

And Mrs Justice Macur pointed out that in a probation interview Moody revealed two previous occasions when complaints had been made against him in the course of his profession, and not proceeded with

​

 

[Prole]

Infinitely more credible than, for example, some old bloke with experience of the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland.

Prosecuting QC in the case where a couple killed a 3 year old boy with salt.

Certainly familiar with the relevant subjects, for example jailing a headmaster:

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...or-sex-abuse-of-young-girls-65233-28439023/2/

​

​

edit: see next post

 

[Prole]

... and :

Australian ex-cop jailed in UK over abuse

Date: December 20 2011

An ex-British police inspector, originally from Melbourne, has been jailed for six years after he admitted sexually touching a 13-year-old girl.

Former Nottinghamshire Police inspector Russell Dew pleaded guilty at Nottingham Crown Court to five counts of sexual activity with a child.

The court heard that many of the incidents took place while Dew was wearing a skirt and a pair of tights and he often incorporated a pair of rigid handcuffs that had been issued to him through his police work.

The 44-year-old stood with his hands clasped behind his back and looked at Justice Julia Macur as she passed sentence on Monday.

She said: "You fall to be sentenced in relation to five counts of sexual activity with a child.

"Two of those counts are sample counts and reflect a course of conduct in which, undoubtedly, you were grooming for sexual purposes a 13-year-old vulnerable girl."

Macur said Dew's behaviour was a "selfish and intended pursuit of this girl for the ultimate pleasure of yourself".

She said the length of sentence reflected that she believed him to be a "dangerous offender" who would have been aided by the knowledge he attained during his time in the police force.

"Your position of trust, and one which involved you at stages of your career an overview not only of domestic violence but also of sexual offenders, would have been encouraged by your work into thinking that you could cover your tracks."

www.smh.com.au - Australian ex-cop jailed in UK over abuse of teenage girl | Russell Dew

 

[kenny g]

Knowing cameron's apparent ineptness I have a sense that he may well have opened yet another hornet nest. I trust the judge.

 

[cesare]

Trust the judge to do what?

 

[butchersapron]

I think that's what cameron and those involved said.

 

[butchersapron]

Morrison but, the locale
Exclusive: Eyewitness 'saw Thatcher aide take boys to abuse

A former resident of the Wrexham care home at the centre of abuse allegations tells Channel 4 News that he saw evidence of abuse, and remembers seeing Sir Peter Morrison at the care home five times.

"I saw him at Bryn Estyn, he turned up in a car, boy went off in his car, don't know if he was in it. It was definitely his car, I saw him arrive in it then we went to bed and we saw it drive off.

"We used to see a lot of people we didn't recognise, not staff. They couldn't have been there for the same reason the staff were there. They turned up at odd hours, early evening and the night. Really nice shoes, I always remember the shoes. And the cars, we were interested in the cars."

 

[butchersapron]

This means that crick and team are now at last/least digging.

 

[scalyboy]

There is a theory that the security service
A) knew of the existence of the parties/proclivities and were required to cover up UK politician involvement in order to protect state from scandal, loss of public confidence in government etc
And
B) went further and used covert filming at parties (or placed orders from targets requesting tapes and pics from parties) from foreign diplomats and others they wanted to have a hold over.

Anyone else heard of this theory?

(b) sounds like what has been alleged (e.g. by Colin Wallace, amongst others) about the Kincora boys' home in Northern Ireland, don't know if it's been suggested this was policy on the mainland too, wouldn't be surprised.