How has Brexit actually affected you so far?

[Thimble Queen]

Calm down I'm going to stop posting until it has been changed.

I dont actually mind but I think everyone else does

 

[dessiato]

The euro has never been more than 1.52 to the pound, and if you're being offered 1:1 by your bank now I suggest you try elsewhere.

That was not the case when I moved to Portugal and it is the rate my two banks are offering here in spain.

 

[JHE]

As a EU citizen myself, I give myself a year to leave if/when Article 50 is triggered, so the announcement today that it will probably happen next March was a bit of a shock..

I entirely understand people worrying about what their situation is going to be after the UK leaves the EU, but I nevertheless think you are far too pessimistic about your prospects.

I'm British and I work in Spain. The thing that most struck me about the referendum result was that many people are so pissed off with the EU that they voted for a very unclear future. A vote for remain was a vote for the status quo and, of course, we more or less know what that status quo is. A vote for leave was a vote for... well, we don't know exactly. We know it'll be out of the EU, probably about two years after Article 50 is triggered, but we don't know much more than that. Among the many things we don't know are questions about residency rights and the right to take up employment. What will be the future for Britons living in France, Spain, Ireland (three countries with many Britons) and the other countries of the EU? What will be the situation of the non-British EU citizens in the UK? We don't know. It is the uncertainty that worries people, including me.

Though we don't know what our situation is going to be, there are certain things we know about intentions and objectives. Some time around the referendum the then Home Sec, May, indicated that the situation of EU citizens in the UK would have to be negotiated. She was criticised for not simply promising that they'd be OK and could stay. Maybe it would have been better if she had said nothing, but what she said was simply true. Of course the issue - of EUers in the UK and equally Britons in the EU - has to be negotiated. It will have to be negotiated with the EU as a whole and possibly there will also have to be bilateral negotiations with some or all of the member states.

Shortly after May became PM she had a telephone meeting with the Spanish PM, Rajoy. It seems the meeting went OK and afterwards the two issued a statement clearly intended to reassure Spaniards in the UK and Britons in Spain, saying essentially that we would be OK. The message was: don't panic. (Panic, after all, could be inconvenient not only for the people panicking, but also for employers and maybe housing markets.) Really it was just an expression of intent. It couldn't be anything more. It was nevertheless partially reassuring. Their intentions are not enough, but are very important.

Can we expect similarly good intentions towards Romanians, Poles, Lithuanians, Cypriots and all the rest? Probably. There is no appetite among British politicians for deporting hundreds of thousands or millions of people or forcing them out of their jobs. Among the electorate, there is considerable opposition to any such move. I've an idea that an opinion poll showed that 85% of British people want EU people already in the UK to be allowed to stay. I expect that is what will happen.

It is much less clear what the situation will be for EU people who want to move to work in the UK or UK people who want to move to work in the EU after Brexit. This is going to be one of the tough parts of the negotiation. If the British government does not manage to reduce immigration it will be seen to have failed and may be electorally punished.

One possible effect (mentioned I think by May) was that there could be a rush of people trying to get to their chosen labour market before the drawbridge is pulled up in a couple of years.



At the moment, in Spain - but not, I think, in the UK - there can be a very big difference between the big legal situation - that an EU citizen has the right to live and work here - and an often very nasty unhelpful administrative situation. If you come to Spain, you need a foreigner's ID number. It's called a NIE. Your NIE is used to identify you uniquely to the tax people and it is also needed for various other purposes, including ones related to accessing the health system. So far, fair enough. A bit of sensible administration, you might think. The problem is that, for the Oficina de Extranjería, the part of the Interior Ministry that grants NIEs, being an EU citizen is not enough to get a NIE. You have to prove, among other things, that you are financially OK. It can approximate to the following Catch 22: you can't get a job without a NIE and you can't get a NIE without a job. I have already been through three bouts with the Oficina de Extranjería. It's a bit like living in a fucking Kafka novel. I am really not looking forward to the next bout which I suppose is highly likely to be imposed on me by Brexit.

Bout 1 was to get my NIE. This was the easiest bout. I already had a job. My employer, very atypically for an employer in Madrid, was willing to wait some weeks for me to supply a NIE. I had a payslip for the previous month, but I had only done two weeks' work, so the amount I earned was at best about half of my usual (modest) salary. The official thought that was not enough and was on the point of rejecting my application. She then went to consult a colleague and they noticed that I was already on the register. I already had a NIE from about 20 years before. Problem solved. It seems if you are on the register, you're on the register. A NIE doesn't expire (though documents bearing it may). They printed me a new little flimsy card and that was that.

Bout 2 was to get a NIE for my wife, L. She is from Venezuela, but since her dad was Italian, she has Italian citizenship and hence EU citizenship. We were dealt with on three occasions by some horrible officials who could not be persuaded to grant a NIE to an unemployed Italian citizen, even though her husband was employed. My contracts were part-time. My contracts were temporary. The officials wouldn't listen to explanations about my little corner of the labour market. In the end a supervisor took pity on us and at the cost, she mentioned, of gaining the emnity of the officials who had repeatedly turned us down, she granted L a NIE.

Bout 3 was the worst. It was to get a NIE for my stepson, S. The problem was not related to the fact he doesn't work. He's a schoolboy. Nor was it a question of nationality. Since his mum has Italian citizenship, so does he, so he's an EU citizen. The problems were related to getting various documents from Venezuela and a demand that I get from the British Consulate a 'constancia de continuidad matrimonial' - ie, a confirmation from the British Consulate that L and I remain married, that we hadn't divorced. There are countries whose consulates issue such documents. British Consulates don't. They say, reasonably enough, that they don't have that information. I explained this to the officials at the Oficina de Extranjería, but they wouldn't accept what I was saying. I hated being treated as if I were lying. In desperation, I contacted the British Consulate and, after a frustrating week or two exchanging emails with some professional fobbers-off, I was finally put in touch with an excellent young woman at the embassy, who solved the problem by asking a favour of a contact who has some very senior position in the Ministry of the Interior. It doesn't seem right that this should depend on anyone's contacts and I imagine the wretched Oficina de Extranjería continues to demand non-existent documents, but at least S got his NIE, which meant he could finally be registered as a beneficiary of mine in the social security system, which in turn meant that he could register with a GP and so access the health system in the usual way.

After Brexit, I suppose I will have further trips to the Oficina de Extranjería, but instead of going to the horrible part for EU citizens, I will have to go to the even worse part for non-EU citizens.

Insofar as I understand the situation, there are various ways Spain could allow me to continue to work. One pretty good possibility is that they may grant me permission on the basis that I will have lived and worked six or seven years here and my employer could put in a good word. She often has to do this for her existing non-EU employees. This permission could be annual or 5-yearly or eventually indefinite. Another possibility is that as the spouse of an EU citizen, my right to live and work in Spain could be recognised, but I fear trying this line with the officials would come up against the same sort of shit as when trying to get S's NIE. A third possibility is that I could try to gain citizenship of a remaining EU country. That can't be Spanish citizenship because I'd have to be here 10 years to become eligible and would then have to give up British citizenship which I wouldn't want to do. I'd like to get Maltese citizenship, and in principle I could, but I don't think it's a practical option. The document-hunting in Wales, England and Malta would take a lot of time and probably money. It might also fail. Who knows which 19th century Maltese birth certificates still exist? (Many archives I imagine were blown into tiny pieces or destroyed by fire during WWII.) A further possibility is to ask to become Italian. It seems feasible and, as with Maltese citizenship, there'd be no need to give up my British citizenship.

I think one way or another it will work out for me, but I don't know how difficult or unpleasant the process will be. Will I be able to retain the same NIE or will I need another one once I'm no longer an EU citizen? If my NIE changes (or even if it doesn't), what implications are there for my position in the social security system and will there be implications for my beneficiaries in the system?

So, in short, for me Brexit is definitely a worry, but definitely not a cause for despair.

 

[Pingety Pong]

I had no idea that Spanish bureaucracy was so awful, JHE. Sounds like a total nightmare. I agree with you that things will work out one way or another for most people and that if you really want to stay, there probably will be a way. Yes, you could always get citizenship - although in the case of British citizenship, May changed the rules last December and made it much more difficult (you now need to apply for a Permanent Resident Card first, which isn't easy) and more expensive. To be honest though, I'm not sure any more that I want to spend over 1500 pounds and swear an oath to the Queen just to stay in a country which I no longer feel all that at home in. I moved here 20 years ago because England was so much more tolerant and forward looking than my home country, but now the tables have turned quite a bit and I'm starting to think it's time to leave. I will miss Britain like mad, but if there really is a hard Brexit like everyone seems to be predicting, I don't think England will be a very pleasant place to be for the next ten years or so.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Pingety Pong A reasonable compromise on the name clash

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I moved here 20 years ago because England was so much more tolerant and forward looking than my home country, but now the tables have turned quite a bit and I'm starting to think it's time to leave. I will miss Britain like mad, but if there really is a hard Brexit like everyone seems to be predicting, I don't think England will be a very pleasant place to be for the next ten years or so.

Don't do that. As the son of an immigrant who moved here 40 years ago, and as someone who voted to leave the EU, I can assure you that there are many people just like myself who will always welcome new arrivals. We just don't want to be a part of a particular set of political institutions.

There are a lot of scare stories atm about attacks on migrants that have stoked up fear unnecessarily, and whilst the individual stories are horrific and not to be ignored, the overall stats do not indicate that you are now at more risk. Anyone telling you otherwise has an agenda, be it a far right one or a cynical remainist one.

Despite coming here as an economic migrant herself, my mum voted leave as well, and she has like you been shaken by the reporting. But she doesn't need to be worried and neither do you. The vast majority of people want you here, even if a small number of racists temporarily became more vocal around the time of the vote. Don't let the bigots win. You are welcome here.

 

[Pingety Pong]

Thanks ItWillNeverWork, and I do believe that the majority of Brits are still very welcoming. I don't want to leave because I'm worried about racist attacks though. The reason why I'm wanting out is that I'm sick to death of the constant fascist undertones coming from the government and huge parts of the press - take one look at this morning's front pages and tell me you wouldn't want to leave if you had been born abroad. And every time I hear that incredibly arrogant May say that foreign doctors are kindly allowed to stay in Britain until British doctors have been trained up in sufficient numbers etc etc, I'm becoming more and more determined to leave as quickly as possible. If there was any chance of a more liberal government taking over any time soon, I might reconsider, but as it stands, it is Au Revoir, lovely Manchester for me.

 

[bemused]

Thanks ItWillNeverWork, and I do believe that the majority of Brits are still very welcoming.

I tend to think that the shitlords amongst us are overwhelmed by the average folks who just want to get on with life with the minimum of friction.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Thanks ItWillNeverWork, and I do believe that the majority of Brits are still very welcoming. I don't want to leave because I'm worried about racist attacks though. The reason why I'm wanting out is that I'm sick to death of the constant fascist undertones coming from the government and huge parts of the press - take one look at this morning's front pages and tell me you wouldn't want to leave if you had been born abroad. And every time I hear that incredibly arrogant May say that foreign doctors are kindly allowed to stay in Britain until British doctors have been trained up in sufficient numbers etc etc, I'm becoming more and more determined to leave as quickly as possible. If there was any chance of a more liberal government taking over any time soon, I might reconsider, but as it stands, it is Au Revoir, lovely Manchester for me.

An Australian who gave up his citizenship for favourable tax status has decreed that UK employers should be ashamed to employ people not born here. Is Mrs May listening? Boris Johnson, born in the US! Jeremy Hunt; wife born in Japan, Nigel Farage; wife and kids are German. Or does that horrid shit Murdoch not mean those people?

 

[cathal marcs]

Insofar as I understand the situation, there are various ways Spain could allow me to continue to work. One pretty good possibility is that they may grant me permission on the basis that I will have lived and worked six or seven years here and my employer could put in a good word. She often has to do this for her existing non-EU employees. This permission could be annual or 5-yearly or eventually indefinite. Another possibility is that as the spouse of an EU citizen, my right to live and work in Spain could be recognised, but I fear trying this line with the officials would come up against the same sort of shit as when trying to get S's NIE. A third possibility is that I could try to gain citizenship of a remaining EU country. That can't be Spanish citizenship because I'd have to be here 10 years to become eligible and would then have to give up British citizenship which I wouldn't want to do. I'd like to get Maltese citizenship, and in principle I could, but I don't think it's a practical option. The document-hunting in Wales, England and Malta would take a lot of time and probably money. It might also fail. Who knows which 19th century Maltese birth certificates still exist? (Many archives I imagine were blown into tiny pieces or destroyed by fire during WWII.) A further possibility is to ask to become Italian. It seems feasible and, as with Maltese citizenship, there'd be no need to give up my British citizenship.

.

I'm in a similar boat; I am eligible for both Spanish and Irish citizenship. There are advantages and disavantages with both; on the one hand Irish citizenship will allow me to retain British citizenship. Nevertheless, as you have mentioned what implications will that have for the administration? I can't even imagine how they will be if my original NIE says British citizen and now I am an Irish citizen. The advantage of Spanish citizenship would be voting rights and as I don't see myself living in Letterkenny any time soon that is a big plus. Likewise, although technically EU citizens shouldn't be discriminated against, I tried applying for a grant to do a PHD through la Caixa, but it is only open to Spanish nationals and on trying to apply for it is impossible due to the different letters in NIEs opposed to DNIs, thus not being able to access the application form. The big disadvantage is having to renounce your previous nationality.



In the end, I think it is best to apply for another EU nationality as I am planning on doing oposiciones (official state exams for those not in Spain) next year or in 2 years in Andalusia and I don't want to lose my eligibility.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I don't suppose that it'll be particularly problematic going on living and working in Spain, well no more than it is now. I deal with argumentative Spanish officialdom all the time and find that it often works by saying "I am not legally a foreigner, I am a communitarian so you don't have any alternative but to do whatever this bureaucratic process is without making me produce a document that I don't have. Go and ask your boss if I'm right". That's not going to work for much longer. Although it's not just the practicalities that affect me.

The issue for me is as a European citizen, which I profoundly feel myself to be, I have increasingly had these rights since 1993; I don't want to go back to being graciously conceded certain things and not others by the inconsistent Spanish authorities. Which is how things were as Spain integrated into the community.

These rights and responsibilities that I have gradually accrued since 1993 are apparently going to be stripped from me. The almost final step was going to be a voter in national elections where after all I live and work: taxation with representation.

For the moment only I am something that after Brexit I won't be. I'll wake up one of these mornings with a totally different status in a country where I have lived since 1992. It'll be awkward on a practical level and deeply unsettling emotionally.

On top of that, I am being unmade a European citizen by a vote that I wasn't even allowed to take part in!

I'm tempted to take up Spanish nationality. To go on being what I feel myself to be. That would mean having two passports, not the same as dual nationality.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't suppose that it'll be particularly problematic going on living and working in Spain, well no more than it is now. I deal with argumentative Spanish officialdom all the time and find that it often works by saying "I am not legally a foreigner, I am a communitarian so you don't have any alternative but to do whatever this bureaucratic process is without making me produce a document that I don't have. Go and ask your boss if I'm right". That's not going to work for much longer. Although it's not just the practicalities that affect me.

The issue for me is as a European citizen, which I profoundly feel myself to be, I have increasingly had these rights since 1993; I don't want to go back to being graciously conceded certain things and not others by the inconsistent Spanish authorities. Which is how things were as Spain integrated into the community.

These rights and responsibilities that I have gradually accrued since 1993 are apparently going to be stripped from me. The almost final step was going to be a voter in national elections where after all I live and work: taxation with representation.

For the moment only I am something that after Brexit I won't be. I'll wake up one of these mornings with a totally different status in a country where I have lived since 1992. It'll be awkward on a practical level and deeply unsettling emotionally.

On top of that, I am being unmade a European citizen by a vote that I wasn't even allowed to take part in!

I'm tempted to take up Spanish nationality. To go on being what I feel myself to be. That would mean having two passports, not the same as dual nationality.

communitarian doesn't mean what you think it does

 

[J Ed]

communitarian doesn't mean what you think it does

You are thinking of the Bookchin stuff. It means something different in Spain. Comunitario, which I suppose is basically just communitarian in English I don't know how else you would translate it, refers to people who are from countries which are either members of the EU, EEA or Switzerland etc as opposed to people who are not from those countries who face considerably more legal hurdles.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

It's a rotten Spanglish translation of "Soy comunitario". I probably should have written "I am a citizen of a member state of the European community" but I chose to run the risk that somebody might deliberately misconstrue my meaning and pick me up on my knowledge of the history of utopian socialism. A big mistake on my part.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a rotten Spanglish translation of "Soy comunitario". I probably should have written "I am a citizen of a member state of the European community" but I chose to run the risk that somebody might deliberately misconstrue my meaning and pick me up on my knowledge of the history of utopian socialism. A big mistake on my part.

Yeh. But I didn't misconstrue your meaning. It is clear I didn't misconstrue your meaning. Don't talk such tosh.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

You're right of course. Tosh is my third language.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're right of course. Tosh is my third language.

Perhaps for the next 26 months you could say EU citizen, which has the benefits of being readily understood and fewer letters than the other c word

 

[Pickman's model]

You are thinking of the Bookchin stuff. It means something different in Spain. Comunitario, which I suppose is basically just communitarian in English I don't know how else you would translate it, refers to people who are from countries which are either members of the EU, EEA or Switzerland etc as opposed to people who are not from those countries who face considerably more legal hurdles.

No, I am thinking of barmby

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Perhaps for the next 26 months you could say EU citizen, which has the benefits of being readily understood and fewer letters than the other c word

I shall take your timely advice in all my future dealings with the matter in English. I suppose the beauty of 'comunitario' is that it has exactly the same advantages over "ciudadano de la CE", though neither is exactly terse.

 

[Pickman's model]

I shall take your timely advice in all my future dealings with the matter in English. I suppose the beauty of 'comunitario' is that it has exactly the same advantages over "ciudadano de la CE", though neither is exactly terse.

Do what you will

 

[weltweit]

I find it irritating politicians saying what people voted for when they voted for brexit. What people voted for was to leave the EU. That was the clear and only question on the ballot paper hence that is what they voted for.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I find it irritating politicians saying what people voted for when they voted for brexit. What people voted for was to leave the EU. That was the clear and only question on the ballot paper hence that is what they voted for.

Damn straight.

 

[Sherman Tank]

Fortunately I am entitled to EU citizenship no matter what and am already brushing up on my French, once Article 50 is started I shall seriously start applying for jobs in France, and probably Ireland to be on the safe side. I suspect millions will be trying to leave, as the economy collapses further.

 

[butchersapron]

Fortunately I am entitled to EU citizenship no matter what and am already brushing up on my French, once Article 50 is started I shall seriously start applying for jobs in France, and probably Ireland to be on the safe side. I suspect millions will be trying to leave, as the economy collapses further.

That's right. Millions fleeing and a collapsing economy. Not a news sort of person are you sherman?

 

[hot air baboon]

....yeah the good times are really rolling in France...

www.ft.com/content/France’s economic woes in charts

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Oh how I long for the liberal and tolerant attitude of the French state.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh how I long for the liberal and tolerant attitude of the French state.

Drink wine outside too. And kids and that.

 

[Sherman Tank]

That's right. Millions fleeing and a collapsing economy. Not a news sort of person are you sherman?

It will over a period of years like in the Eighties. I don't care how liberal the French state. I would prefer Denmark or Sweden but I don't speak their languages, I realise there are English language opportunities though and may head there. For me though it is about the European ideal, I want to see and be a part of a USE not a pale imitation conservative answer to Cuba.

 

[butchersapron]

It will over a period of years like in the Eighties. I don't care how liberal the French state. I would prefer Denmark or Sweden but I don't speak their languages, I realise there are English language opportunities though and may head there. For me though it is about the European ideal, I want to see and be a part of a USE not a pale imitation conservative answer to Cuba.

Where millions fled and the economy collapsed. Was it you that was on about 'political illiterates?'

 

[Pickman's model]

Fortunately I am entitled to EU citizenship no matter what and am already brushing up on my French, once Article 50 is started I shall seriously start applying for jobs in France, and probably Ireland to be on the safe side. I suspect millions will be trying to leave, as the economy collapses further.

As soon as they hear you're coming perhaps