I agree that many Plaid members would like to see more Welsh people speak the language, but not to the exclusion of other languages. I doubt there are any Plaid members who would wish to see the country become monolingual, which the term 'linguistic purist' would seem to imply.
How Fascist Were Plaid Cymru?
- Thread starter phildwyer
- Start date
I agree that many Plaid members would like to see more Welsh people speak the language, but not to the exclusion of other languages. I doubt there are any Plaid members who would wish to see the country become monolingual, which the term 'linguistic purist' would seem to imply.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Yes which is racist you twat.phildwyer said:
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
phildwyer said:
No they are not. They are legally compelled to learn ABOUT the Welsh language, a few phrases. Unless you go to a Welsh medium school you will not learn to speak Welsh.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
phildwyer said:
Er..?
NOW, you are completely wrong.
Please check your facts.
Every single child in school in Wales has to take English. Up to GCSE level.
Thats as "forced" if not more so, than the national curriculum requirement for Welsh language. Scools have an opt out clause from the Welsh requirement anyway.
You clearly don`t know what you`re you`re talking about here.
Right, I'm sick of the petty quibbling. I will now tell you Plaid Cymru lot what you should do. If you take my advice, you will be ruling Wales permanently within a decade. If you choose to ignore it, you will forever remain with your tiny, dwindling band of Jacks, Gogs and pan-Celtic supremacist carpetbaggers. 'Sup to you.
A historic opportunity is currently staring you in the face. Obviously, the key to power in Wales is winning the allegiance of the proletariat in Cardiff, Newport and the Valleys, who constitute a large majority of the Welsh population. These people are strongly and radically socialist. But for the last 20-30 years they have been betrayed and abandoned by the Labour Party, and they are now poised to switch parties, if only there was an alternative. They are also fiercely patriotic, despite the fact that they have absolutely NO interest in learning Welsh, and they are certainly not enamored of the English.
They'd vote for you in droves if you'd do the following: (a) adopt a radical socialist platform, (B) argue for independence within Europe, and (c) drop the langauge bollocks. The Welsh-speakers will vote for you anyway, they've got nowhere else to go. Tell the people that an independent Wales will join the Euro, adopt the EU social legislation that Thatcher opted out of, and be a radical socialist voice within the EU. Point to the example of Cuba, a tiny country which acts as an inspiring (and now largely peaceful) example for an entire continent. Declare yourselves committed to a multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-linguistic society. Encourage--yes, ENCOURAGE--immigration to Wales from the third world (Wales is one of the very few underpopulated countries in the developed world.) Use their labor, ambition and initiative to become an industrial powerhouse once again. Then invade, conquer and occupy England, or Bristol at least...
OK, only joking about the last bit. But the rest of my program is manifestly the way to go. But noooo, you'd rather bang on about the language, trapping yourself in the Jack/Gog ghetto, and never getting you anywhere in the south east. Focussing on the language will only divide the Welsh people, leaving them weak and subordinate to England. Which, I am beginning to suspect, is exactly how you guys like it.
A historic opportunity is currently staring you in the face. Obviously, the key to power in Wales is winning the allegiance of the proletariat in Cardiff, Newport and the Valleys, who constitute a large majority of the Welsh population. These people are strongly and radically socialist. But for the last 20-30 years they have been betrayed and abandoned by the Labour Party, and they are now poised to switch parties, if only there was an alternative. They are also fiercely patriotic, despite the fact that they have absolutely NO interest in learning Welsh, and they are certainly not enamored of the English.
They'd vote for you in droves if you'd do the following: (a) adopt a radical socialist platform, (B) argue for independence within Europe, and (c) drop the langauge bollocks. The Welsh-speakers will vote for you anyway, they've got nowhere else to go. Tell the people that an independent Wales will join the Euro, adopt the EU social legislation that Thatcher opted out of, and be a radical socialist voice within the EU. Point to the example of Cuba, a tiny country which acts as an inspiring (and now largely peaceful) example for an entire continent. Declare yourselves committed to a multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-linguistic society. Encourage--yes, ENCOURAGE--immigration to Wales from the third world (Wales is one of the very few underpopulated countries in the developed world.) Use their labor, ambition and initiative to become an industrial powerhouse once again. Then invade, conquer and occupy England, or Bristol at least...
OK, only joking about the last bit. But the rest of my program is manifestly the way to go. But noooo, you'd rather bang on about the language, trapping yourself in the Jack/Gog ghetto, and never getting you anywhere in the south east. Focussing on the language will only divide the Welsh people, leaving them weak and subordinate to England. Which, I am beginning to suspect, is exactly how you guys like it.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
a) I`m not one of the "Plaid Cymru" lot. I left Plaid Cymru because i didn`t agree with them any more. Funnily enough because they weren`t left wing enough.
b) Drop the language bollocks? do you not think (with your professed multiculturalist passions that it is important that Welsh speaking communities are defended against the monoculture? (cos lets face it it isn`t Somali or Urdu speakers threatening these communities its the English speakers)
c) I`m not a Nationalist in any sense. However I do support indigenous communities...do you?
d) I don`t really care about plaid cymru and its electoral future, but your arguments are spurious.
b) Drop the language bollocks? do you not think (with your professed multiculturalist passions that it is important that Welsh speaking communities are defended against the monoculture? (cos lets face it it isn`t Somali or Urdu speakers threatening these communities its the English speakers)
c) I`m not a Nationalist in any sense. However I do support indigenous communities...do you?
d) I don`t really care about plaid cymru and its electoral future, but your arguments are spurious.
Karac
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Mamau
Id probably agree with about 90% of what you say.phildwyer said:
I think your a bit mixed up on the language issue though-if it was an issue anyway-its been on the back-burner for years now as a bone of contention-and all the main parties voice support, in theory at least, for the language.
The majority of Plaid members in Cardiff and the Valleys dont speak Welsh and a sizable minority arent even Welsh-theres now way Plaid goes round demanding people speak Welsh -it just doesnt happen!
Its a myth invented by the Labour Party desperados who are terrified of of losing their seats in the Valleys so feel the need to invent stuff like "Saunders Lewis was a Nazi" and "Plaid would force everyone to speak Welsh".
Like the stuff about invading Bristol though.
jannerboyuk
...just kids gone wild.
The problem is that your mixing up your own obsession with the language issue with how it is perceived by everybody else. As an Englishman living in Wales for a few years now my worries about Plaid cover a number of political issues but the language doesn't bother me at all. You've yet to provide any evidence that the language is especially important for people when deciding whether or not to vote for or support Plaid.phildwyer said:
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Phil the vision you describe is exactly what the left within Plaid Cymru is working for.
I don't speak Welsh, and nobody in Plaid has ever tried to 'force' Welsh on me, so i don't see a problem in that respect.
Jannerboy is quite right to say the problem with getting people to vote Plaid is not the language, its other issues, such as the constitutional question.
But again, all the points Phil has mentioned are things the left of the party (people like Adam Price, Leanne Wood, Jill Evans) are working towards. We need more leftists and socialists in the party, otherwise i'm worried disillusioned Labour voters will turn to the Lib Dems instead.
I don't speak Welsh, and nobody in Plaid has ever tried to 'force' Welsh on me, so i don't see a problem in that respect.
Jannerboy is quite right to say the problem with getting people to vote Plaid is not the language, its other issues, such as the constitutional question.
But again, all the points Phil has mentioned are things the left of the party (people like Adam Price, Leanne Wood, Jill Evans) are working towards. We need more leftists and socialists in the party, otherwise i'm worried disillusioned Labour voters will turn to the Lib Dems instead.
lewislewis said:
The 'Leftists' who are either in Plaid Cymru or vote for them have it wrong, I'm afraid.
To be able to govern the rest of us (and to ensure that the minority interest of the Welsh language becomes the defining signifier of what constitutes 'Welshness') the party needs new mass-support from outside of its Welsh-speaking heartlands. The only way Plaid can acheive its aim of becoming a ruling elite, is by drawing support from groups alien to their historic domain: i.e. from the Valleys, S/E and Labour voters.
If anyone in Plaid wants to "put socialism before the language issue", they are simply in the wrong party for that.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I don't think so. I think defending minority languages and oppressed cultures is a very socialist thing to do. As for 'bread and butter' issues, they are given much more prominence in Plaid Cymru manifestos than our Welsh language policies are. I want an independent, left-leaning Wales working as a progressive force in Europe.
lewislewis said:
Lewislewis, you are not in the upper tier of that party, are you? What you want and what PC may want come independence may not necessarily coincide. I suspect that they'll clash, infact!
In its push to become a ruling class in a new Nation State, Plaid C has to pass through certain strategic stages to get where it needs to be. One of the most glaringly obvious is to attempt to draw a circle around the socialist heartlands of the Welsh majority populace and to claim them for its own.
Also, to stamp these rotten industrial herds with the mark of the Welsh language elite, or, to have non-Welsh speakers pining for greater power and resources for the minority language culture. And to begin to mistake language issues for class issues.
Don't fall for that crap!
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I am blatantly not in the 'upper tier' of the party.
The kind of country I want is exactly as outlined by PC in their 2005 and 2003 manifestos.
The kind of country I want is exactly as outlined by PC in their 2005 and 2003 manifestos.
lewislewis said:
You say that and I don't doubt it, but it doesn't change my above point that the social group of which Plaid Cymru is merely the public facade has a desperate need to win over good people such as yourself.
lewislewis said:
Fair enough. I might even join the party if I ever move back to Wales, and try to push it in this direction. Trouble is, as Ernesto has pointed out, I might find it difficult to get a job in Wales because of the language issue, but you never know. And for the record, I do think its important that the language survives, and clearly its part of PC's job to ensure that it does. (Its a rare but rewarding U75 thread when the contesting participants actually end up seeing each others' point of view, BTW...).
jannerboyuk
...just kids gone wild.
I check the jobs pages of the south wales echo and western mail every week and apart from a few receptionist, senior execs and S4C jobs i rarely see welsh speaking as an essential criteria. The 'we will all have to speak welsh to get a job stuff' has been predicted since i first come to wales in 1997 at least and yet noone has ever proferred any proof that this is happening.Karac said:
Karac
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Mamau
Cobblers Major Boyo.majorleague said:
Take a look at what the new breed of Plaid are saying-people like Adam Price and Leanne Woods -working -class socialists.
As has been pointed out before Plaids won Rhondda Council and Caerphilly Council in the past and will do again.
Labours fucked long term in South Wales -the old ties of Industrial ,Coal and Steel jobs have long gone and with them the Union and Labour Party connection.
Labour now in South Wales consists of ageing careerists and parachuted in Blair-clones.
Personally i wish "Cymru Ymlaen" all the best -but dont you think you should be in a party with a serious chance of electoral success than hanging around on the fringes?
jannerboyuk
...just kids gone wild.
Aren't you glad Plaid didn't follow such advice themselves or did Plaid leap into national prominence within a week of its launch?Karac said:
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
jannerboyuk said:
Well, it was a pressure group for a long time, as soon as it started fighting elections it was saving deposits.
Jannerboy you're spot on on the language issue. Alot of people see 'Welsh language skills are preferred' on job adverts in the South Wales Echo and other papers, but this is basically a disclaimer. As an essential criteria, Welsh is only needed for jobs in which you need to speak it!
Phil, if you ever decide to come back come for a drink with me and we can discuss a socialist Wales.
Karac- You're right about Welsh Labour being infected with Blairite clones. One of whom is Maggie Jones, who was parachuted in to fight Blaneau Gwent in the GE- Peter Law trounced her. Maggie Jones is a close personal friend of Cherie Blair, and has now been shortlisted for some other Labour safe seat in England!
As for Cymru Ymlaen, they'd be my preference if Plaid weren't standing in a certain seat. But for the next Assembly election, they are a fringe party and won't win many seats if any. Hey you never know, this might change after 2007, but i think Majorleague's vision of a Forward Wales assembly government in 2012 is a bit much.
I can understand if people are put off because of the old-style guys in the party- Ieuan Wyn, Cynog Dafis, Wigley etc etc. I have the deepest respect for these as politicians and nationalists, but it has to be pointed out there is a young, predominantly south Wales based progressive current within the party, represented by people such as Adam Price and by the Triban Coch newsletter, that is the real future of the party.
Come on lads, lets get the left in Wales together before its too late.
lewislewis said:
lewislewis said:
majorleague said:
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
colacho
gorau arf, arf dysg
phildwyer said:
As ever, people who make these arguments forget the history involved. Wales is in many ways and in many areas a multilingual, multicultural society. But the dominance of English -the very fact of the domiancne of English in schools and in society generally- comes from years of state-sponsored colonialist violence, real and symbolic, that did its best to destroy the Welsh language. So in that sense there is a historic debt to be paid, as there is by all colonial powers in all sorts of ways. To demand some respect for the Welsh language is simply to recognise that debt.
And more to the point, what's the problem with "having" to learn another language? It should be regarded as a privilege. And it's certainly something that should be accepted if you want to live in Wales. If you're a lazy monoglot there's a simple answer- bring up your kids in England. Cornwall might be nice, as that's obviously your model for the future Wales.
roger rosewall
New Member
How fascist was Plaid Cymru?
What a stupid question. Plaid was never fascist. Look Saunders Lewis was influenced by right wing corporatist doctrines that were cuirrent in France and Italy in the 1920/30s. But his vision of Wales was also based on returning the country to a pre-industrial Welsh speaking past and to Catholicism. A reactionary utopian vision at odds with reality.
Plaid today is based on a left of centre social democratic vision of an independent Wales that will form part of a European Union in which measures such as the Social Chapter play a high profile role.
In terms of its social base Plaid remains based, for the most part, on the rural Welsh speaking populations of the north and west of the country. As it must preserve this social base at all Plaid cannot afford to move too far to the left.
As for its base in the mostly anglophone parts of Wales Plaids activist base is very slim. In general its electoral base is very unstable and swings between Plaid an Labour and each succesive Westminster and Cardiff election. Despite which it has built a small electoral machine in south wales due to the disillusionment with Labour of large parts of the working class. However when in office in the local councils Plaid has acted in a manner identical to Labour controlled councils and has carried out cuts policies.
Plaid then is a left, but not very, wing nationalist party which can never become a genuine socialist party. Its appeal must always be, on pain of losing its petty bourgeois rural base, be nation first. This also reinforces the importance of the language question to the party given that its base is to a consiiderable degree Welsh speaking.
Its true that in the past Welsh speakers were discriminated against by state and employers alike. But the reverse is now true to a limited degree and some jobs are reserved for Welsh speakers only (not very many all things told). It is also the case that Welsh medium culture is subsdized in a way that English is not with S4C, the Urdd and the cultural establishment all having a vested interest in state subsidies. But in terms of state expenditure as a whole and placed in historic context this is small potatoes.
To conclude Plai is a nationalist party which exists to express the sectional interests of a part, the rural Welsh speaking part, of the population of Wales. It has a small left wing which is completely divorced from what remains of the workers movement and is a captive of the Plaid right. In office Plaid is no more left wing or socialist than Labour.
As a a nationalist party it is divisive of the working class and therefore weakens any potential struggle for socialism and workers power. it is also a typically eltisit party in that it promises that its elected representatives will carry out its policies. This actually serves to derail any actual struggle for progressive goals.
The moral? Plaid is an obstacle to socialism in Wales which no decent socialist should vote for or support in any way what so ever.
What a stupid question. Plaid was never fascist. Look Saunders Lewis was influenced by right wing corporatist doctrines that were cuirrent in France and Italy in the 1920/30s. But his vision of Wales was also based on returning the country to a pre-industrial Welsh speaking past and to Catholicism. A reactionary utopian vision at odds with reality.
Plaid today is based on a left of centre social democratic vision of an independent Wales that will form part of a European Union in which measures such as the Social Chapter play a high profile role.
In terms of its social base Plaid remains based, for the most part, on the rural Welsh speaking populations of the north and west of the country. As it must preserve this social base at all Plaid cannot afford to move too far to the left.
As for its base in the mostly anglophone parts of Wales Plaids activist base is very slim. In general its electoral base is very unstable and swings between Plaid an Labour and each succesive Westminster and Cardiff election. Despite which it has built a small electoral machine in south wales due to the disillusionment with Labour of large parts of the working class. However when in office in the local councils Plaid has acted in a manner identical to Labour controlled councils and has carried out cuts policies.
Plaid then is a left, but not very, wing nationalist party which can never become a genuine socialist party. Its appeal must always be, on pain of losing its petty bourgeois rural base, be nation first. This also reinforces the importance of the language question to the party given that its base is to a consiiderable degree Welsh speaking.
Its true that in the past Welsh speakers were discriminated against by state and employers alike. But the reverse is now true to a limited degree and some jobs are reserved for Welsh speakers only (not very many all things told). It is also the case that Welsh medium culture is subsdized in a way that English is not with S4C, the Urdd and the cultural establishment all having a vested interest in state subsidies. But in terms of state expenditure as a whole and placed in historic context this is small potatoes.
To conclude Plai is a nationalist party which exists to express the sectional interests of a part, the rural Welsh speaking part, of the population of Wales. It has a small left wing which is completely divorced from what remains of the workers movement and is a captive of the Plaid right. In office Plaid is no more left wing or socialist than Labour.
As a a nationalist party it is divisive of the working class and therefore weakens any potential struggle for socialism and workers power. it is also a typically eltisit party in that it promises that its elected representatives will carry out its policies. This actually serves to derail any actual struggle for progressive goals.
The moral? Plaid is an obstacle to socialism in Wales which no decent socialist should vote for or support in any way what so ever.
Ben Bore
Member
Just found this thread via a link from another thread in U75, and have subjected myself to the 5 pages of dis-information regarding Plaid Cymru, nazi sympathy and all this crap about being 'forced to learn Welsh'.
I don't want to re-open it again, but I've recently read a new blog by a Labour member in Cardiff who's learnt Welsh as an adult and who is pissed-off to put it mildly with the way certian members of his party are demonizing nationalists and mis-using the terms 'racist' and 'fascist'.
Paucity of Welsh Political Discourse
1. How unpleasant was Saunders Lewis?
2. The Mendacity and Xenophobia of Natwatch*
*If you follow the link to Natwatch, you may think it's fairly lame, but this annonymous site is a bit naughty, and many suspect it's linked to the Labour party. It's relatively new and among it's recent successes in 'nat baiting' (his/her own words) is posting a drunken abusive e-mail recieved from a Welsh Langauge Initative worker, harrassing a Welsh langauge messagage board's administrator, and forcing a council worker to resign after he refused to pass on information to natwatch.
I don't want to re-open it again, but I've recently read a new blog by a Labour member in Cardiff who's learnt Welsh as an adult and who is pissed-off to put it mildly with the way certian members of his party are demonizing nationalists and mis-using the terms 'racist' and 'fascist'.
Paucity of Welsh Political Discourse
1. How unpleasant was Saunders Lewis?
2. The Mendacity and Xenophobia of Natwatch*
*If you follow the link to Natwatch, you may think it's fairly lame, but this annonymous site is a bit naughty, and many suspect it's linked to the Labour party. It's relatively new and among it's recent successes in 'nat baiting' (his/her own words) is posting a drunken abusive e-mail recieved from a Welsh Langauge Initative worker, harrassing a Welsh langauge messagage board's administrator, and forcing a council worker to resign after he refused to pass on information to natwatch.
Hedd
New Member
If you can get an English translation read http://www.uwp.co.uk/editions/9780708326503?language=en by Professor Richard Wyn Jones which debunks this myth entirely!
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