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"Healthcare" in the US

CRI said:
I'd actually say other way round. I'm sure it was nearly 25 years ago you started getting the rubbish circulating linking autism to the MMR vaccine, and I don't remember at that time there being much of a concern about "Big Pharma" as such. But I think all the pseudo science about vaccines being dangerous contributed to mistrust in the Pharmaceutical industry, and more recently, mistrust in scientific interest generally.

Even more recently, you have this, which some have gone so far as saying that it's a tool of cyber warfare that results in actual deaths (i.e. not vaccinating children, rejecting life-saving treatments, etc.)

Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate

Russia trolls 'spreading vaccine discord'
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Here's something I don't get about the "Russian trolls are promoting anti-vaxx" narrative. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it's all unequivocally true. Why then is the Russian government seemingly not concerned about this kind of shit coming back to bite their own arses? Russia already has demographic issues due to a low birthrate; adding some extra infant mortality on top of that would be a massively boneheaded move.

One might say many things about the Russian government; but it seems hard to credit that they would be this utterly stupid. So what gives?
 
8ball said:
Just a quick question to gauge opinion - to what degree do posters think the anti-vaxx and anti- proper cancer treatments stuff happening is down to a climate of mistrust in the pharma industry?
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Mistrust in big pharma is contributory but not causative, in the same way that mistrust in government doesn't result in thinking 911 was an inside job but it's kind of necessary.

I worked in big pharma when I was younger, 20-odd years ago, some of the time in the US. Everyone hated them and tbh quite rightly. I could not mention who I worked for at a social gathering because I would get cornered by people talking about how their grandma had to go to Mexico to buy drugs because her daily meds cost $1000 or whatever. Of course a lot of this is the insurance companies too but they are all in it together and everyone working there knows this. I had to leave the industry, and while I won't pretend the ethics were the only part they were significant.

The point being that they've always been mistrusted but there were few serious anti vax types back then. There were definitely other conspiracy theories though. I used to get frustrated that people would make shit up when there were so many obvious, publicly documented issues that were way worse than the conspiracy shit would have been even if it were true.
 
Chronic pain is the example that I use to illustrate the differences between the US system and the UK one (or a lot of places).

Painkillers are a massive area in the US pharmaceutical sector, with enormous amounts of R&D going towards them. We do hear over here about addictions to prescription painkillers being an epidemic and it's not unreasonable to wonder why so many people are being prescribed painkillers in the first place. The reason is that getting whatever it is that's causing you chronic pain treated is unaffordable to a vast number of people - or even the prospect of engaging in a course of medical treatment puts people off, because it will likely bankrupt them. So they get painkillers. You see TV ads for non-prescription painkillers using the assumption that you probably have aches and pains that you need to take daily analgesics for.

Plus there's the war on drugs of course which makes medical use of opiates - highly effective, un-patentable painkillers - almost impossible, leading to a slew of opioids being developed, which do as much if not more damage. Big pharma was exceptionally aware of all of this and budgets were deliberately tailored to exploit the situation as much as possible, as well as lobbyists helping to keep the underlying laws going, in concert with hospitals and insurance companies making bucks every time someone takes chronic medication. Why is legalisation of dope so much more of an issue in the US than here? This is part of it.

This sort of thing is why I get so angry about conspiracy nuts - the system is absolutely broken yet they make stuff up which doesn't challenge the system. It's no wonder they are so boosted by the conservative right.
 
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FridgeMagnet said:
Mistrust in big pharma is contributory but not causative, in the same way that mistrust in government doesn't result in thinking 911 was an inside job but it's kind of necessary.

I worked in big pharma when I was younger, 20-odd years ago, some of the time in the US. Everyone hated them and tbh quite rightly. I could not mention who I worked for at a social gathering because I would get cornered by people talking about how their grandma had to go to Mexico to buy drugs because her daily meds cost $1000 or whatever. Of course a lot of this is the insurance companies too but they are all in it together and everyone working there knows this. I had to leave the industry, and while I won't pretend the ethics were the only part they were significant.

The point being that they've always been mistrusted but there were few serious anti vax types back then. There were definitely other conspiracy theories though. I used to get frustrated that people would make shit up when there were so many obvious, publicly documented issues that were way worse than the conspiracy shit would have been even if it were true.
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60 Minutes did a segment on Big Pharma and colluding to raise prices. There's currently 40 states suing them for price fixing. It was quite a good report, but it didn't really tell anyone they didn't know.

60 Minutes reports: prescription drug price fixing

The thing I object to is that they only fine them for doing this. I've worked in the private sector enough to know that their accountants have already figured that into their profit projections. They'll consider it the price of doing business and continue on just as before. To have any real impact, they're going to have to jail people. I don't see it happening.
 
As Suicides Rise, Insurers Find Ways to Deny Mental Health Coverage
Bloomberg 16/05/19
The U.S. is in the midst of a mental health crisis. In 2017, 47,000 Americans died by suicide and 70,000 from drug overdoses. And 17.3 million adults suffered at least one major depressive episode. The Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act, a landmark law passed more than a decade ago, requires insurers to provide comparable coverage for mental health and medical treatments. Even so, insurers are denying claims, limiting coverage, and finding other ways to avoid complying with the law.

Americans are taking to the courts to address what they see as an intrinsic unfairness. DeeDee Tillitt joined one lawsuit in 2016, months after she lost her son Max. He’d been an inpatient for three weeks at a treatment center to recover from a heroin addiction and seemed to be making progress. His addiction specialist wanted him to stay. United Behavioral Health, a unit of UnitedHealth Group, the nation’s largest insurer, declined to cover a longer stay for Max. Reluctantly, his family brought him home. Ten weeks later, Max was dead of an overdose. He was 21.
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yield said:
As Suicides Rise, Insurers Find Ways to Deny Mental Health Coverage
Bloomberg 16/05/19
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If there's one health area where the insurance model really, really falls down, it's mental health. There's a reason they even needed things like the "Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act" - because "the market" utterly breaks down when it comes to covering and supporting issues like mental health, addiction, and emotional distress, far less enabling good preventative care and promotion of emotional wellbeing.
 
American caravan arrives in Canadian 'birthplace of insulin' for cheaper medicine
Reuters. 29/06/19
Insulin prices in the United States nearly doubled to an average annual cost of $5,705 in 2016 from $2,864 in 2012, according to a study in January.

While not everyone purchased the same amount of insulin, Smith-Holt said most people are saving around $3,000 for three months of insulin, and as a whole the group is saving around $15,000 to $20,000.

Prescriptions for insulin are not required in Canadian pharmacies Smith-Holt said, but the caravan has them so they can prove to the border patrol they are not intending to resell them when returning to the United States.

Quinn Nystrom, a leader of T1International’s Minnesota chapter, said on May via Twitter that the price of insulin in the United States per vial was $320, while in Canada the same medication under a different name was $30.
Click to expand...
 
8ball said:
Just a quick question to gauge opinion - to what degree do posters think the anti-vaxx and anti- proper cancer treatments stuff happening is down to a climate of mistrust in the pharma industry?
Click to expand...

little to none. it's part of an extensive anti-establishment rhetoric that imo is the greatest victory of postmodernism, except instead of heteronormativity vel sim., the biggest narrative you're fighting is "the liberal/elite/legacy/mainstream media" and the information it purveys, like science, a drumbeat that has been sounding for 50 years and more (huntley and brinkley got called "communists") and has come to full fruit in the election of trump.
 
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Another bit of the really fucked up state of our healthcare system:

An elderly husband and wife died in an apparent murder-suicide in Washington state, and police say they found notes about the couple's struggles to afford needed medical care.

A 77-year-old man called 911 on Wednesday morning saying he planned to die by suicide, the Whatcom County Sheriff’s Office said in a Facebook post.


Deputies went to the home of the man in Ferndale, a town about 100 miles north of Seattle near the Canadian border, and set up outside. A crisis negotiator attempted to contact the couple by phone and loudspeaker for about an hour, according to the sheriff's office post Wednesday night.

They then found both the man and his wife, 76, dead inside. Authorities are investigating the case as a murder-suicide.

Medical costs appear to have been a factor.
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Elderly couple found dead in apparent murder-suicide, left notes about high medical bills
 
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equationgirl said:
Yuwipi Woman how has obamacare changed anything?
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Yes, but not really in cost, unless you count costs going up. I do find that I have better coverage for preventative care such as mammograms, etc. Before Obamacare, I had a company balk at paying for a mammogram even though I had a bloody discharge. I ended up eating the cost of that. I found out later that I could have appealed that and likely won. I've also found better coverage of vaccinations.

However, I don't see it containing costs. We have, over the years seen near doubling of costs from year to year. This year we soaked up a 40% increase. My boss had no choice but to pass on some of that cost. This had resulted in a drop in my take home pay. About a decade ago I took about a 20% pay cut due to a loss of hours. With raises in the price of insurance, my takehome pay is less than it was in 2008. I'm not sure how long that can continue before I'll have to examine other choices.

Its been good for people who are lower income, but can't afford insurance. Some of my friends who never had insurance now have insurance at a subsidized cost to them. I had a friend die, in part, because they didn't have health insurance so I value that highly. I kinda like my friends and want to keep them around as long as possible.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
Yes, but not really in cost, unless you count costs going up. I do find that I have better coverage for preventative care such as mammograms, etc. Before Obamacare, I had a company balk at paying for a mammogram even though I had a bloody discharge. I ended up eating the cost of that. I found out later that I could have appealed that and likely won. I've also found better coverage of vaccinations.

However, I don't see it containing costs. We have, over the years seen near doubling of costs from year to year. This year we soaked up a 40% increase. My boss had no choice but to pass on some of that cost. This had resulted in a drop in my take home pay. About a decade ago I took about a 20% pay cut due to a loss of hours. With raises in the price of insurance, my takehome pay is less than it was in 2008. I'm not sure how long that can continue before I'll have to examine other choices.

Its been good for people who are lower income, but can't afford insurance. Some of my friends who never had insurance now have insurance at a subsidized cost to them. I had a friend die, in part, because they didn't have health insurance so I value that highly. I kinda like my friends and want to keep them around as long as possible.
Click to expand...


I read an US article about people planning for retirement.
The article claimed that 58% of those questioned placed uncertainty over how much to put aside for health care as their number one concerns. This tops all other concerns (housing, food, recreation, etc.)

There was also a chart of how much each section would cost them.

We are retired, so on a fixed income. After seeing the US costs, I went to see how afford it. NOPE!!!

We pay just over $100 a month for additional health care. Among other things, it covers the cost of my $200 a month medication.

I could see forgoing the meds to keep our heads above water. :(

I am grateful for our medical system.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
Yes, but not really in cost, unless you count costs going up. I do find that I have better coverage for preventative care such as mammograms, etc. Before Obamacare, I had a company balk at paying for a mammogram even though I had a bloody discharge. I ended up eating the cost of that. I found out later that I could have appealed that and likely won. I've also found better coverage of vaccinations.

However, I don't see it containing costs. We have, over the years seen near doubling of costs from year to year. This year we soaked up a 40% increase. My boss had no choice but to pass on some of that cost. This had resulted in a drop in my take home pay. About a decade ago I took about a 20% pay cut due to a loss of hours. With raises in the price of insurance, my takehome pay is less than it was in 2008. I'm not sure how long that can continue before I'll have to examine other choices.

Its been good for people who are lower income, but can't afford insurance. Some of my friends who never had insurance now have insurance at a subsidized cost to them. I had a friend die, in part, because they didn't have health insurance so I value that highly. I kinda like my friends and want to keep them around as long as possible.
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Christ that's depressing, except for the bit about your friends having coverage now. But spiralling costs is shit :(

Glad you get access to better stuff now, although making you appeal something they refused to cover, at a time you could do without the stress, is a pretty crappy thing to do.

I hope you well and surviving despite trump.
 
spring-peeper said:
I read an US article about people planning for retirement.
The article claimed that 58% of those questioned placed uncertainty over how much to put aside for health care as their number one concerns. This tops all other concerns (housing, food, recreation, etc.)

There was also a chart of how much each section would cost them.

We are retired, so on a fixed income. After seeing the US costs, I went to see how afford it. NOPE!!!

We pay just over $100 a month for additional health care. Among other things, it covers the cost of my $200 a month medication.

I could see forgoing the meds to keep our heads above water. :(

I am grateful for our medical system.
Click to expand...

My boss put on a retirement planning session. Part of the class was someone who spoke about Medicare and Medicare supplement plans and how much money you should expect to spend on healthcare. She said we should all expect to spend a minimum of $250,000 out of pocket for medical care after the age of 65. That's more than most people's net worth. No wonder people die in penury.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
My boss put on a retirement planning session. Part of the class was someone who spoke about Medicare and Medicare supplement plans and how much money you should expect to spend on healthcare. She said we should all expect to spend a minimum of $250,000 out of pocket for medical care after the age of 65. That's more than most people's net worth. No wonder people die in penury.
Click to expand...


Wow!!!!
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
My boss put on a retirement planning session. Part of the class was someone who spoke about Medicare and Medicare supplement plans and how much money you should expect to spend on healthcare. She said we should all expect to spend a minimum of $250,000 out of pocket for medical care after the age of 65. That's more than most people's net worth. No wonder people die in penury.
Click to expand...
Christ. No wonder people die when they needn't.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
My boss put on a retirement planning session. Part of the class was someone who spoke about Medicare and Medicare supplement plans and how much money you should expect to spend on healthcare. She said we should all expect to spend a minimum of $250,000 out of pocket for medical care after the age of 65. That's more than most people's net worth. No wonder people die in penury.
Click to expand...

Astonishing.

And you put up with this when you have so many guns...
 
equationgirl said:
Joking aside I bet there's been an increase in the number of suicides and murder-suicides over this issue. That's desparately sad.
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Funny, isn't it, how in a country with a healthcare system which almost actively drives the notion of "mercy killing" (and still executes criminals), the attitudes towards voluntary autoeuthanasia are so negative. It's almost as if THEY want to decide when you get to die, not you.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
We should start a conspiracy theory that the NRA are in league with Big Medicine and Big Pharma, so that the money comes rolling in both before and after you get shot.
Click to expand...

While I don't generally buy into conspiracy theories, I do believe that if you looked at the investments of most people in power, you would find large investments into military contractors, gun manufacturers, and pharmaceuticals. I'd also add private prisons to that list. If you're going to dump as many guns as possible, while peddling opiates like candy, you're going to have a glowing private prison sector. I don't think its a conspiracy. You would have to be organized to run a conspiracy. I think they've just made some very cynical bets motivated by greed.
 
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