Griffin and BNP strategy

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Despite the semi-flattering things I said upthread about the Cylops Fuhrers analysis, it must be said that the BNP will always fail to successfully build while the majority of their councillors are completely shit.

For everyone that gets elected, there's generally one elsewhere getting booted out for being inept or lazy.

It's no mystery, why would a bunch of race-obsessed criminals be anygood at handling issues like road safety, planning, benefits, drains and dogshit issues that are the day to day reality for life as a councillor?

 

[dash_two]

It's no mystery, why would a bucnh of race-obsessed criminals be anygood at handling issues like road safety, planning, benefits, drains and dogshit issues that are the day to day reality for life as a councillor?

People on the political fringes are often too odd and self-absorbed to function effectively at such tasks. But the BNP wants to recruit more normal or 'respectable' people, and if it succeeds then it will enlarge the pool of those it can trust to carry out the duties of a councillor.

They could seek motivation in their work from feelings and ideas of kin altruism or 'looking after our own kind'.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

People on the political fringes are often too odd and self-absorbed to function effectively at such tasks. But the BNP wants to recruit more normal or 'respectable' people, and if it succeeds then it will enlarge the pool of those it can trust to carry out the duties of a councillor.

They could seek motivation in their work from feelings and ideas of kin altruism or 'looking after our own kind'.

Having observed the bnp at very close quarters I would say that they are beginning to learn the lessons of having idiots in electoral positions. They are just starting to get intellegent candidates and this may well be a sorting the wheat from the chaff situation where the more intellegent racists can grap their place in the ascendancy within th eparty.

This is the point in which to worry. A party made up of knuckledraggers is something you can take the piss out of but a party t hat is working for a wider appeal is much more dangerous.

 

[JimPage]

At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time since the riots.

Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.

they now have 2 parish councillors in Wrexham as well- expect a sizable show by them in the local elections in May 2008- especially if the price to be paid for LibDem support in the Welsh Assembly is PR at local elections- as happened up here in Scotland

 

[treelover]

a sharp riposte to the witchfinder general, Dash Two,

If you mean 'racist' in the left-wing sense of 'person who I don't like/agree with' then I can just about live with that. If you mean it in the more normal sense of 'person who regards other races as inferior' then leave it out, thanks.

 

[dash_two]

the witchfinder general

I hear his unicycle drawing nigh

 

[chilango]

At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time since the riots.

Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.

Of course.

I left in 2004, so Ive misssed whatever has happenned since then.

However the BNP presence was growing rapidly in NE Wales during 2003-2004 PRIOR to the riots. They no doubt were able to use them to their benefit - maybe in other parts of the area, no?

 

[chilango]

What splits have we had?

Do you really want a history lesson?

Since the BNP as it is now, not so many...the ISG maybe.

Prior to that...let`s see....

RCP
RCG
RDG
WP
RA

for starters...

and the rest of the left is no better. Even Workers Power managed to split!

But more pertinantly, the collapse/disintegration of the Socialist Alliance (which the SWP was a key player in).

...and I'll put money on Respect going the same way within 2 to 3 years (max)

Some people argue that the fragmentation of the Left in Britain into dozens of competing factions that cannot cooperate on any succesful joint venture at all (look at the SSP for gods sake) is one reason why there is a vacuum that the BNP step in to fill.

They contrast this with a perception that the far right remains largely united within the BNP.

Not an argument that I agree with but still.....

 

[The Black Hand]

No, it's not an odd thing to say. When lots of people perceive immigration to be 'too high' or 'out of control', then a party with an anti-immigration agenda will inevitably pick up more support. This is bleeding obvious.

You might want high levels of immigration for various reasons but you'll have to accept that at the same time you will increase support for an anti-immigration party. Otherwise it's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it.

THe institute of race relations published some research which said that pandering to racist/anti migration parties actually INCREASED their vote... SO the lesson is....

 

[audiotech]

 

[audiotech]

Bit meaningless becuase both Respect and UKIP will have targetted more, fielding less candidates overall.

Respect also beat the Greens in 24 out of 25 wards in which they competed. Meaningless?

 

[audiotech]

Do you really want a history lesson?

Since the BNP as it is now, not so many...the ISG maybe.

Prior to that...let`s see....

RCP
RCG
RDG
WP
RA

for starters...

and the rest of the left is no better. Even Workers Power managed to split!

But more pertinantly, the collapse/disintegration of the Socialist Alliance (which the SWP was a key player in).

...and I'll put money on Respect going the same way within 2 to 3 years (max)

Those sectlets you mention walked, or were expelled. No "splits" as such as those groups involved just a few individuals at most, as they are still now (those that still exist that is).

Didn't the SP walk away from the Socialist Alliance because they couldn't control it?

Some thought Respect wouldn't last 12 months. How wrong they were.

 

[becky p]

Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?

For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1782117.ece

For the main course, another recent YouGov poll, this time in the Telegraph. When asked to list Blair's failures, at number one, with 58%, was allowing immigration to rise to unacceptable levels. See the 'click to enlarge' link on this page:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml

I've saved this last one for dessert. Even a cynic like me got a bit of a shock reading it. It's from a 2002 poll commissioned by the BBC into attitudes towards immigration. Among other questions, people were asked:



30% of all respondents said it has benefitted our society. 44% said it has damaged it. 26% went for 'don't know' - probably the biggest 'don't know' response I've ever seen in a poll. (I would probably be one of them.) You'll need to scroll down and click on the questions to see the responses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/survey.stm#Immigration

Its fairly obvious to most people that immigration is a major issue. The BNP will try to use the issue to gain new support.The kind of support far right parties have in countries like France and Italy.
I dont think ignoring the issue will do any good. But the issue has to be tackled sensitively.

 

[audiotech]

The BNP will try to use the issue to gain new support.

Never!

 

[audiotech]

It was all so simpler . They marched, then got battered around the houses.

in three parts

 

[Das Uberdog]

Respect also beat the Greens in 24 out of 25 wards in which they competed. Meaningless?

Not to mention MC5, that much of the reason we fielded less candidates was because in mahor cities like London and the borough of Tower Hamlets in particular, there weren't any council elections!

Duuuuh!

 

[lewislewis]

Bit meaningless becuase both Respect and UKIP will have targetted more, fielding less candidates overall.

There is no denying the nazi vote wasnt bad, and that their strategy and Griffens analysis is astute. Griffen is right that local politics fails to reach out beyond core votes. As someone who ran for The Greens I witnessed this.

The low turnout is a disgrace and de-legitimises democracy, but the likes of Labour and Liberal simply dont care - it keeps them in power. The ongoing failure of major parties to represent anything other than corporate careerism is a major boost to the fascist cause. So is the fetish for fascism we constantly see in our press. The Green Party have loads more councillors and generally less news items devoted to us.

Racism and fascism are clearly more newsworthy than tired old crap like saving the species. Ho hum.

It's true, honest parties that want to be an alternative to the 'Big Three' have to get their people out, convince people to vote. It is no coincidence that all the seats held by Plaid Cymru in Wales or where there was a big Plaid challenge, had the biggest turn-outs in Wales this year.

I'd imagine the Greens would produce similar results if they ever held office at such a high level (and presumably other left parties including respect), because people outside the usual 3 parties are less managerial and more ideological, and more passionate about politics. If such people become councillors or Assembly Members or MPs, more people will turn out to vote for them.

I can't see the BNP producing any astute candidates that will inspire loyalty from the voters at the moment, but if they get more organised and educated they might well build beyond the level of protest voting.

 

[nino_savatte]

Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?

For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1782117.ece

For the main course, another recent YouGov poll, this time in the Telegraph. When asked to list Blair's failures, at number one, with 58%, was allowing immigration to rise to unacceptable levels. See the 'click to enlarge' link on this page:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml

I've saved this last one for dessert. Even a cynic like me got a bit of a shock reading it. It's from a 2002 poll commissioned by the BBC into attitudes towards immigration. Among other questions, people were asked:



30% of all respondents said it has benefitted our society. 44% said it has damaged it. 26% went for 'don't know' - probably the biggest 'don't know' response I've ever seen in a poll. (I would probably be one of them.) You'll need to scroll down and click on the questions to see the responses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/survey.stm#Immigration

These assumptions are based on ignorance. Furthermore, polls are not scientific and they can be easily manipulated. Yougov, huh?

Your idea is to pander to the BNP by doing their job for them..your solution to the BNP is to end immigration - it's lazy thinking that is the product of a mind that is locked into a binary mode of operation. And who are these "immigrants" that you are so concerned about? I wonder....

Immigration controls are based on xenophobia and racism. The BNP is both xenophobic and racist. Playing their game is short-sighted and dangerous.

Take your patronising guff and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[nino_savatte]

I hear his unicycle drawing nigh

An attempt at wit? Fucking dire, like your crackpot ideas of pandering to the BNP's wishes. Spoken like a true circus freak.

 

[nino_savatte]

a sharp riposte to the witchfinder general, Dash Two,

The bearded lady runs to the freak's rescue. It was hardly a "sharp riposte". It was a piss poor attempt at wit and nothing else.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I can't see the BNP producing any astute candidates that will inspire loyalty from the voters at the moment, but if they get more organised and educated they might well build beyond the level of protest voting.

Not wishing to throw a jeremid into he debate but I reckon the bnp is looking at getting candidates of a calibre that will pull in the daily mail reader and the excluded underclass. Then we will really have to worry. If that happens then I'm on the first available plane out.

If they get a foothold in the commons in FPTP then they will build on that.

 

[dash_two]

These assumptions are based on ignorance. Furthermore, polls are not scientific and they can be easily manipulated. Yougov, huh?

Ahhhh yesssss, polls are always rubbish when they come up with results we can't handle, and always reliable and valid when they confirm our view of the world!

 

[nino_savatte]

Ahhhh yesssss, polls are always rubbish when they come up with results we can't handle, and always reliable and valid when they confirm our view of the world!

The data can be manipulated and explained, in a particular way, to lend weight to a particular argument or narrative.

Yours is the product of lazy thinking and binarist assumptions.

 

[dash_two]

I reckon the bnp is looking at getting candidates of a calibre that will pull in the daily mail reader

They seem to be doing that very consciously, crawling up Melanie Phillips' doubtless tight backside for a start.

 

[nino_savatte]

dash two's 'solution'

The BNP are picking up council seats. Solution? End immigration.

Fucking lazy thinking or what?

 

[dash_two]

The data can be manipulated and explained, in a particular way, to lend weight to a particular argument or narrative.

Yours is the product of lazy thinking and binarist assumptions.

So, before you start squirting me in the face with that big plastic flower attached to your outsized lapel, explain how to me how those poll results have been manipulated.

 

[nino_savatte]

So, before you start squirting me in the face with that big plastic flower attached to your outsized lapel, explain how to me how those poll results have been manipulated.

Ah, more nonsense. Before I do anything, how about you explain your lazy thinking with regards to the BNP and immigration?

 

[dash_two]

I asked first!

 

[nino_savatte]

Come on, dash...how does ending immigration do anything but pander to the BNP (a minority party)? Hmmmmm?

 

[nino_savatte]

I asked first!

You came out with the preposterous notion that the BNP could be 'tackled' by "ending immigration". It seems to me that it is you who has some explaining to do.