Griffin and BNP strategy

[Fruitloop]

I mean, is the worry that Nick Griffin is gonna make Prime Minister? The BNP are tolerated as a kind of media side-show as long as they aren't within shouting distance of any real power - how long will it take for them to be torn apart as soon as they represent a real threat, particularly given the apparent nature of many of their candidate's proclivities?

 

[Fez909]

All this talk of posing as a mainstream party is depressing. Why should politics have to come second to doing work in the community? They should go hand in hand, all the way. It's not an either or matter.

The left disagree on a lot of (largely unimportant) stuff, but the core message is pretty much the same. If people see genuine improvements to their society through a group which has 'strange' ideas, they're more likely to come around to that way of thinking, rather than it being enforced on them at some unknown day in the future once that group has managed to win their way into power.

I think this is a dishonest strategy.

 

[Zeppo]

Fez talks a lot of sense. It is the battle of ideas and hard work on the ground that issues will be won. To persuade someone who wants to vote BNP an alternative needs to be put forward beyond the BNP are really bad people.

If the UK had 20% inflation and 5 million unemployed with the economy in tatters - how many votes would move to the BNP then? This may be a backdrop that the BNP would prefer. Meanwhile it is as usual all down to hard work to build an alternative.

 

[durruti02]

I'm a bit unsure as to why this article has been seen as a good thing, durrati?

Firstly, it's all about the BNP's losses since last time. Griffin blames an increase in tactics by those opposed to the BNP rather than the pathetic councilors they had elected last time. He says that to gain more votes next time, they should emulate the work done by those who have beaten them this time. I don't think this is such a great strategy for changing people's lives for the better. It's core message is, "we'll give you what you have now, but with nationalism." Which means, what, no darkies? Hardly earth-shattering stuff from the Fat Fascist.

All the way through the article he talks of getting covered in mud, and community 'celebrations' as if this is some big deal. It's the superficial politics of New Labour but with added nastiness. The tone of the article is power, power, power. Nothing about really improving people's lives in the long term. Just a vague hint at what would happen should they ever get in a position of power - creating "fully-fledged and well informed nationalists."

Hardly a strategy I'd be looking towards for help.

yes i totally agree there is a nasty bigoted subtext which explains why a lot of people support it. However surveys in both east london and lancs have shown that many people who vote BNP do NOT suubsribe to these ideas but are looking for an outlet, a protest. so the worry is that that while that outlet should be for the left in fat it has gone to the right

by this sneaky and creepy strategy they are combining the core racist vote with a sympathy on the lines of ' well they're trying to do something' .. i think this is particularly dangerous in that they may end up actually convincing many of their voters who are not now anti immigrant or racist, but just fucked off, to be that

solution?? show them up with antifa prop yes, BUT also acknowledge that there are millions of don't knows out there who want to find something differrent something that appeals to a sense of community etc. this sounds cyncial and would be if it wasn't genuine. if the sw did it it would be cynical .. we need to develop a movement that is community based and progressive

 

[durruti02]

durrutti is asking people to examine what the strategy is not to agree with it. you have in griffins article, in black and white, what they intend to do over the next 12 months. griffinaccepts that the past strategy has failed- and we are getting 12 months notice that if we go into the 2008 elections we will not be facing a 2007-style BNP. Unlike, say the left up here in scotland who are currently in a bickering contest, they are analysing why they failed- and planning what to do about it. they will learn from their mistakes in 2007

cheers jim for clarifying

 

[durruti02]

This is just a matter of resources and organisation, and also leadership. The BNP has a wide activist base and no rival far-right parties or splits (at least, none that contest elections). They have a known leader who can send a message to the party telling its members what to do.

Take the far-left though, there are about 127883752 tiny sects who disagree on far-out theoretical positions that have no impact on people's daily lives whatsoever. I know alot of people on this forum are involved in far-left politics, maybe your factions should put their differences aside and form one electoral front, get involved in your communities, clean shit up, instead of standing on the high street selling socialist workers (or whatever the SWP does nowadays).
Once you prove yourself as a hard worker in your ward, you can then insert the politics where appropriate.
The BNP are posing as a mainstream party, and the far-left must do this as well if they want to counter the threat. Any political party can make short-term gains if they get involved in the community. That's what Plaid did in the valleys, unfortunately it went to shit organisationally, Labour woke up and annihilated us with a mad propaganda campaign. But we're still there and still the natural second party in those areas, with the chance to win them back next time.
There should be a single socialist party in each UK country, like the Socialist Alliance was.
The BNP have discipline and organisation. If the convenor of an imaginary Socialist party that emerged sent that message out to his members, the dozens of sects would start bickering over what the message meant and whether it complied with theory etc.
Until the far-left gets serious, it will have to keep on telling people to vote Labour (or Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid whatever) to keep the BNP out.

For my part, i'm with Plaid and am confident we can beat the BNP in any ward in any part of Wales, with considerable ease.

can't disagree with that mate ..


p.s. out of interest any ideas why those who voted bnp in wrecsam did not vote plaid?

 

[bluestreak]

maybe i'm a thicky but would it be fair to say that respect, the green party, and the assorted left political parties are still more successful than the bnp?

 

[durruti02]

And the consequences of that would be what, exactly?

an increase in racial attacks for starters .. there is tons of evidence that everytime the bnp get councillors elected, racial attacks go up

more generally i am concerned they could, as Zeppo suggests, be getting into a pole position for when the shit hits the fan economically ( how much debt do we have in this country???) and people are looking for someone to blame

it is incredible that after 20 years of thatcherism we are only now having this debate (and thinking how to play catch up with the bnp!!!!)

 

[durruti02]

maybe i'm a thicky but would it be fair to say that respect, the green party, and the assorted left political parties are still more successful than the bnp?

of course they are still small .. but it is the rate of growth, and where it is that is frightenning .. they are far more significant than Respect in any working class areas (outside of high % anglo-/pakistani seats)

 

[KeyboardJockey]

of course they are still small .. but it is the rate of growth, and where it is that is frightenning .. they are far more significant than Respect in any working class areas (outside of high % anglo-/pakistani seats)

I couldn't agree more. I'd predict that they are going to be more successful than Mosley's lot.

It frustrates me that Respect tout themselves as an alternative and don't even bother doing the work in white working class areas.

 

[Fruitloop]

an increase in racial attacks for starters .. there is tons of evidence that everytime the bnp get councillors elected, racial attacks go up

more generally i am concerned they could, as Zeppo suggests, be getting into a pole position for when the shit hits the fan economically ( how much debt do we have in this country???) and people are looking for someone to blame

it is incredible that after 20 years of thatcherism we are only now having this debate (and thinking how to play catch up with the bnp!!!!)

Who is only now having what debate?

I honestly think it's going to take more than a debt-related crash to put the BNP in pole position for anything - unless there are major electoral changes they will remain what they've always been, a minor party spectating the great pendulum of two-party 'democracy'.

 

[lewislewis]

can't disagree with that mate ..


p.s. out of interest any ideas why those who voted bnp in wrecsam did not vote plaid?

The BNP vote up there was certainly linked to racial issues, although i'm not 100% sure what happened on the ground or what the issues were.

 

[Groucho]

of course they are still small .. but it is the rate of growth, and where it is that is frightenning .. they are far more significant than Respect in any working class areas (outside of high % anglo-/pakistani seats)

I don't want to derail onto Respect but the 60% white Preston constituency where Lavallette was re-elected, or the almost 100% white Bolsover constituency where Respect won with a socialist former miner were both working class areas. In both cases the kind of local campaigning agenda keying in to peope's real concerns and linking these to broader political issues that you say you advocate were key to these successes. And while we're at it - are the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets Pakistanis now?

Yes, racist attacks do increase where the BNP have a presence and more so if they get elected. Anti-immigrant feeling stemming from acceptance of myths about immigration contributes to this, yet you spend much of your time advocating that anti-immigration campaigns be taken up by the left. Every time the anti-Immigration argument is conceded whether by the press, or by politicians or by supposed (or misguided) anti-racists it fuels support for the likes of the BNP. You don't head them off by accepting part of their agenda.
In B & D there is NO 'homes for Africans' scandal. It is a myth, but is a widely accepted one. You can't deal with the 'homes for Africans' issue because it isn't there to deal with. There is though a real housing issue that the local press have assisted the BNP in turning into an anti-immigration cul-de-sac. Since the local LP are somewhat gagged in dealing with the real housing problems precided over by the LP Govt. no real alternative is being put to that of the BNP.

 

[durruti02]

Who is only now having what debate?

I honestly think it's going to take more than a debt-related crash to put the BNP in pole position for anything - unless there are major electoral changes they will remain what they've always been, a minor party spectating the great pendulum of two-party 'democracy'.

the left has not had a debate about work in communities apart from a short lived one around the poll tax ( sw against .. SP for .. in fact tbh of course the SP does work in communities though it stil does a lot of fluff) except for of course the RA led debate in AFA leading to IWCA

i appreciate what you say .. it may juts be a yo yo thing .. maybe they do have a 15% ceiling BUT even that is really fking scary especially in times of strife .. not sure if you had a look at their votes but some really big ones and very wide spread ..

again IF there was a left alt. then again it would not be so bad .. but there is virtually none

 

[Fruitloop]

Another thing I don't get it, why is the worry that the fascists will gain ground only in working-class communities? Hasn't fascism here traditionally relied heavily on the support of the middle classes and their organs, like the Daily Mail etc?

Given that historically a key plank of fascist ideology has always been anti-communism (on a par I think with anti-semitism as an invariant feature of fascist organisations), maybe it's better that the left is composed of a million tiny fragments. Previous periods of high public support for the fascists have almost always coincided with a high degree of (perceived or actual) communist threat, so maybe we should be careful about which direction we end up driving the bourgeiosie in.

 

[Groucho]

maybe i'm a thicky but would it be fair to say that respect, the green party, and the assorted left political parties are still more successful than the bnp?

The BNP have 50 councillors. I think the Greens have more (??) Respect have 20. Assorted other left parties have a smattering. So on that basis yes. But the BNP are a single presence.

The fact is though that the BNP have been establishing themselves on the political terrain. That in itself is dangerous. And I agree with Zeppo that an economic crisis would fuel support in the absence of a much better rooted left alternative to LP.

On the plus side the fact is we are a much more ethnically diverese society than we were in the days of the BUF or at the high point of the NF, and a more integrated society at that. And the BNP's public face has to be far more moderate than either were. They can pick up racist votes but as yet there is little support for their real fascist agenda. When they call for mobilisations only a pathetic core of fascists turn up. In the recent council elections they lost almost as many councillors as they gained - the callibre of their candidates must leave a lot to be desired from their point of view. The recent results outside of Wales were a great disappointment to them. So without being complacent it is wrong to big them up too much.

 

[durruti02]

1)I don't want to derail onto Respect but the 60% white Preston constituency where Lavallette was re-elected, or the almost 100% white Bolsover constituency where Respect won with a socialist former miner were both working class areas. In both cases the kind of local campaigning agenda keying in to peope's real concerns and linking these to broader political issues that you say you advocate were key to these successes.

2)And while we're at it - are the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets Pakistanis now?

3)Yes, racist attacks do increase where the BNP have a presence and more so if they get elected. Anti-immigrant feeling stemming from acceptance of myths about immigration contributes to this,

4)yet you spend much of your time advocating that anti-immigration campaigns be taken up by the left. Every time the anti-Immigration argument is conceded whether by the press, or by politicians or by supposed (or misguided) anti-racists it fuels support for the likes of the BNP. You don't head them off by accepting part of their agenda.

5)In B & D there is NO 'homes for Africans' scandal. It is a myth, but is a widely accepted one. You can't deal with the 'homes for Africans' issue because it isn't there to deal with. There is though a real housing issue that the local press have assisted the BNP in turning into an anti-immigration cul-de-sac. Since the local LP are somewhat gagged in dealing with the real housing problems precided over by the LP Govt. no real alternative is being put to that of the BNP.

1)i think the resultin preston are excellent .. iwould think we all need to look at how Respect in preston, IWCA in oxford and SP in e.g cov have suceeded .. and you need to acknowledge that this success does not reflect respect generally

2)oops .. lazy! my point was the strategy does not work with all muslims e.g. the turkish pop (didn't bangla used to be east pakistan!) ( edited due to gross geogaphically stupidity!)

3) yes you ar e right

4) ??? what anti- immigration campaigns .. immigration is a key part of neo-liberalism yes? anti immigrant attitudes are ALREADY widespread in the community .. it is correct that we as a left need to find a way of OPPOSING the import or movment of labour for strike breaking, wage cutting etc etc while at the same time remaining progressive .. saying nothing is NOT an option

5) said nowt on this but agree .. bnp clearly lied and also clearly LP are part of the problem .. we need to build an alt.

 

[durruti02]

1)Another thing I don't get it, why is the worry that the fascists will gain ground only in working-class communities? Hasn't fascism here traditionally relied heavily on the support of the middle classes and their organs, like the Daily Mail etc?

2)Given that historically a key plank of fascist ideology has always been anti-communism (on a par I think with anti-semitism as an invariant feature of fascist organisations), maybe it's better that the left is composed of a million tiny fragments. Previous periods of high public support for the fascists have almost always coincided with a high degree of (perceived or actual) communist threat, so maybe we should be careful about which direction we end up driving the bourgeiosie in.

1) yes you are right .. they seem to be doing particularly well in lower middle class areas

2) interesting point! but there are more of us than them!

 

[pingupete]

The BNP have 50 councillors. I think the Greens have more (??)

Greens have 111 in England, 8 in Scotland

 

[lewislewis]

The BNP vote up there was certainly linked to racial issues, although i'm not 100% sure what happened on the ground or what the issues were.

Durruti02, having looked into this a bit more and thought about it, it's quite likely that most of the people who voted for the BNP in North Wales, especially in Wrecsam, were voting on the racial issues- large numbers of Eastern Europeans and also problems between the white people and Iraqis with some nasty rioting a few years ago. It is most likely that the majority of these voters were English people, for whom voting for Plaid just wouldn't wash. As such, the reason the BNP voters didn't vote Labour, Plaid, Tory or Lib Dem is simple; the voters wanted to register their frustration at the supposed influx of immigrants in those areas by voting for a controversial party that was stoking up animosity towards them.

Plaid's job in that area must be to propose an alternative to the BNP's politics of hate, I know they're trying but it is difficult in some areas to get English-mindset people (Especially those that are racist !) to vote for such a Welsh party.

One interesting part of the Welsh election was the disappearance of the socialist left, there was no presence in terms of candidates or campaigning. The SLP were on all 5 regional ballots, the Communist Party of Britain (all 5 regions) stodd, then the Socialist Alternative were on 2 regions, Respect on 2 regions and the Socialist Equality Party on 1 region. All polled less than 1 % of the national share, except for the SLP which polled 1.2%, about 12,000 votes. The BNP polled 40,000 odd votes, 4.3%.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Durruti02, having looked into this a bit more and thought about it, it's quite likely that most of the people who voted for the BNP in North Wales...It is most likely that the majority of these voters were English people, for whom voting for Plaid just wouldn't wash.

Are you shewer? Seems like a bit of a get-out clause for me. I asked a similar Q about BNP/SNP and was told it ain't an issue. How can nationalism not be an issue?

 

[Das Uberdog]

I couldn't agree more. I'd predict that they are going to be more successful than Mosley's lot.

It frustrates me that Respect tout themselves as an alternative and don't even bother doing the work in white working class areas.

Would like to say bollocks, not just on the "PRESTON AND BOLSOVER, PRESTON AND BOLSOVER" front either.

We stand in plenty of wards around the country where there isn't a significant Muslim population. It just so happens that Preston and Bolsover are the first of these wards in which we've had significant successes, but in many of the other areas we're posing a serious challenge and are making 2nd/1st pos. I won't deny that Respect gained significantly from the anti-war sentiment amongst the Bangladeshi community in Landan, but even there (from hearing people taking the exit polls) it sounds like our vote was a mix of white and Asian, fairly equally. However much the Bangladeshi community hate the war, they're also tribally loyal to Labour.

 

[nino_savatte]

Another thing I don't get it, why is the worry that the fascists will gain ground only in working-class communities? Hasn't fascism here traditionally relied heavily on the support of the middle classes and their organs, like the Daily Mail etc?

Given that historically a key plank of fascist ideology has always been anti-communism (on a par I think with anti-semitism as an invariant feature of fascist organisations), maybe it's better that the left is composed of a million tiny fragments. Previous periods of high public support for the fascists have almost always coincided with a high degree of (perceived or actual) communist threat, so maybe we should be careful about which direction we end up driving the bourgeiosie in.

Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.

 

[The Black Hand]

Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.

Indeed, in the North East Andrew Spence (ex UKIP farmer/Haulage owner) the only BNP candidate in Derwentside is a petty bourgeois, and in Catterick 2candidates are Publicans (this is just from what I have picked up - there is no systematic research).

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.

Correct. The bnp is also doing well with the sort of 'working class blokes made good' who moved out to places like Hornchurch and Upminster when they made a bit of money. These voters would have normally voted Tory but in some cases are moving to bnp.

 

[dennisr]

Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.

The problem fascists always had when they represented a serious force was how to control the layer of working class folk they leaned on for support. The Nazis played the 'german worker' card but beheaded their own 'left-wing' when they got to power with the night of the long knives. The basis of their 'solid' support is not working class in outlook or interests.

Actually retaining support from the section of working class people who have voted BNP is a long term problem for them - they offer no solutions for the specific problems working class people face, at least, not tied to artificial 'national' interests

 

[nino_savatte]

Correct. The bnp is also doing well with the sort of 'working class blokes made good' who moved out to places like Hornchurch and Upminster when they made a bit of money. These voters would have normally voted Tory but in some cases are moving to bnp.

No one would describe Griffin and his inner circle as "proles". Wasn't Tyndall some sort of petit aristocrat?

 

[nino_savatte]

The problem fascists always had when they represented a serious force was how to control the layer of working class folk they leaned on for support. The Nazis played the 'german worker' card but beheaded their own 'left-wing' when they got to power with the night of the long knives. The basis of their 'solid' support is not working class in outlook or interests.

Actually retaining support from the section of working class people who have voted BNP is a long term problem for them - they offer no solutions for the specific problems working class people face, at least, not tied to artificial 'national' interests

Aye, the last thing the leadership of any fascist party wants is a bunch of proles sticking their oar in with their needs. Far better for the fash to make all the right noises about "immigration" and use the working class vote to ease the path to power. Any ideology that marries state and corporate power could never consider the needs of the proletariat because it undermines the very idea of that power relationship.

 

[dash_two]

The Far Right claim to be against immigration but over the past forty years or so have been remarkably unsuccessful in doing anything to stop it.

They are in the strange position of hating and fearing immigrants yet they must also know that without high levels of immigration they have little chance of gaining widespread support outside the 'ethnic frontier' areas, at least in the short to medium term.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

No one would describe Griffin and his inner circle as "proles". Wasn't Tyndall some sort of petit aristocrat?

I seem to recall something like that. Or at the very least a forelock tugger where aristos were concerned.