Griffin and BNP strategy

[Divisive Cotton]

Durruti02, having looked into this a bit more and thought about it, it's quite likely that most of the people who voted for the BNP in North Wales, especially in Wrecsam, were voting on the racial issues- large numbers of Eastern Europeans and also problems between the white people and Iraqis with some nasty rioting a few years ago. It is most likely that the majority of these voters were English people, for whom voting for Plaid just wouldn't wash. As such, the reason the BNP voters didn't vote Labour, Plaid, Tory or Lib Dem is simple; the voters wanted to register their frustration at the supposed influx of immigrants in those areas by voting for a controversial party that was stoking up animosity towards them.

Well that would be a believable explanation for their vote - but would be interested to see some evidence to back that argument up

 

[chilango]

The BNP has a wide activist base and no rival far-right parties or splits (at least, none that contest elections).

Small quibble...that's not quite accurate.

There are a number of rivals and splits who contest elections at the mo.

There's one "England First" ? set up by ex BNP councillor iirc, that did damage the BNP vote up North somewhere.

Someone here will know more i'm sure...

 

[chilango]

Well that would be a believable explanation for their vote - but would be interested to see some evidence to back that argument up

There were "race riots" (at least thats what the media described them as) in Wrecsam not so long ago. No doubt the BNP have played on that.

 

[portman]

Correct. The bnp is also doing well with the sort of 'working class blokes made good' who moved out to places like Hornchurch and Upminster when they made a bit of money. These voters would have normally voted Tory but in some cases are moving to bnp.

There's one ward in my part of Thurrock called Homesteads which tends to back up this notion. Unlike the Stanford East and Corringham Town ward which I contested for the IWCA, Homesteads has no local authority or housing association homes. It is almost all owner occupiers with the mix of housing going from bottom of the range developments of terraces and semis up to detached houses down leafy roads. A lot of the population are working class made good plus a fair few who consider themselves solidly middle class. Certainly no deprivation or social stress like there is in parts of Stanford East and Corringham Town.

The BNP contested Homesteads in a by-election a few years back (1.12.05) and polled 150 votes. Last year they didn't bother, putting all of their effort into Stanford East and Corringham Town. This year they did contest Homesteads and stormed to a worringly impressive 652 votes. This is one of the more affluent wards inthe eastern part of Thurrock - home of worried and increasingly bitter Mail and Express readers. Quite possibly people who regard those living on some of the estates on the other side of the road in Stanford East and Corringham Town as scum! Which having canvassed those estates is very far from the truth but there you go... Unfortunately I don't have any contacts in Homesteads because I would love to know what sort of campaign the BNP mounted and what they were saying to people on the doorstep.

Because, if it is what I think they might have been saying to some people about the estate dwellers in the ward I was contesting, it could prove to be very useful ammunition...

 

[The Black Hand]

There's one ward in my part of Thurrock called Homesteads which tends to back up this notion. Unlike the Stanford East and Corringham Town ward which I contested for the IWCA, Homesteads has no local authority or housing association homes. It is almost all owner occupiers with the mix of housing going from bottom of the range developments of terraces and semis up to detached houses down leafy roads. A lot of the population are working class made good plus a fair few who consider themselves solidly middle class. Certainly no deprivation or social stress like there is in parts of Stanford East and Corringham Town.

The BNP contested Homesteads in a by-election a few years back (1.12.05) and polled 150 votes. Last year they didn't bother, putting all of their effort into Stanford East and Corringham Town. This year they did contest Homesteads and stormed to a worringly impressive 652 votes. This is one of the more affluent wards inthe eastern part of Thurrock - home of worried and increasingly bitter Mail and Express readers. Quite possibly people who regard those living on some of the estates on the other side of the road in Stanford East and Corringham Town as scum! Which having canvassed those estates is very far from the truth but there you go... Unfortunately I don't have any contacts in Homesteads because I would love to know what sort of campaign the BNP mounted and what they were saying to people on the doorstep.

Because, if it is what I think they might have been saying to some people about the estate dwellers in the ward I was contesting, it could prove to be very useful ammunition...

Go and knock on their doors and ask them Portman. Go in a suit with a clipboard and say you are from Essex university doing a survey about party canvassing at the recent election. Have a questionnaire ready (photocopied) numbers, dress sense, What introduction did they give, did they give a name? (don't ask for the name) you know, make it sound like a real survey... they you can develop the conversation in the direction you want it to go to get the info...

Preparation time - 2-3 hours. Going out and doing it about the same. Not too bad a return for the effort if you get the information you want...

 

[Joe Reilly]

Not only should you know better, having (I presume) read a couple of my articles on the Griffin BNP, let's consider one basic fact: at 50 councillors, the GRiffin BNP has more than every previous fascist group (including the Tyndall BNP) put together, by a factor of at least 5. Don't you think Left groups would kill (metaphorically) to get circa 14% of the vote in elections?

The problem here, I fear, is you have an a priori dismissive analysis of Griffin's strategy, not based on historical empirical or strategic evidence, and applaud posters who concur with your premises. Were the matter not so serious, it would be amusing.

Larry, you have it spot on. His reference to '50 out of 20k' councillors proves it. This is the classic line adopted by all who insist that 'nothing need be done'. The supreme attraction of this policy position is that it has as much credibility if the reference should be just a '1000 out of 20k' as it is currently. And so on. Or putting it another way, he and his ilk are never likely to be proved wrong. In the meantime, society continues to move right...

 

[The Black Hand]

Larry, you have it spot on. His reference to '50 out of 20k' councillors proves it. This is the classic line adopted by all who insist that 'nothing need be done'. The supreme attraction of this policy position is that it has as much credibility if the reference should be just a '1000 out of 20k' as it is currently. And so on. Or putting it another way, he and his ilk are never likely to be proved wrong. In the meantime, society continues to move right...

You haven't been reading what I have been writing Joe. To save you the time this is precis of what I have said;

Actually I am (using current in vogue libertarian language) arguing for an horizontal popular front of anti fascism, which organises beyond traditional boundaries and explicitely involves those targetted by racists and fascists within the programme. It would also (going back to the 19th formation of the British working class) be involved in whatever voluntary, charity, welfare support systems there are for those migrants (secular if possible but including religious ones cos they have the space and some resources). And these official and unoffficial institutions exist all over the country already.

 

[JimPage]

Small quibble...that's not quite accurate.

There are a number of rivals and splits who contest elections at the mo.

There's one "England First" ? set up by ex BNP councillor iirc, that did damage the BNP vote up North somewhere.

Someone here will know more i'm sure...

The EFP did do some damage last year getting 2 elected- but both councillors resigned they seats earlier this year, and no new ones elected

The BNP are pretty much the only option for a fash who actually wants to acheive something

 

[chilango]

The EFP did do some damage last year getting 2 elected- but both councillors resigned they seats earlier this year, and no new ones elected

The BNP are pretty much the only option for a fash who actually wants to acheive something

Yup.

But, the BNP have not avoided splits and rivals anymore than the SWP/Respect have.

Thats my point. The fact that the BNP maintain hegemony pretty much would be interesting to investigate.

 

[portman]

Go and knock on their doors and ask them Portman. Go in a suit with a clipboard and say you are from Essex university doing a survey about party canvassing at the recent election. Have a questionnaire ready (photocopied) numbers, dress sense, What introduction did they give, did they give a name? (don't ask for the name) you know, make it sound like a real survey... they you can develop the conversation in the direction you want it to go to get the info...

Preparation time - 2-3 hours. Going out and doing it about the same. Not too bad a return for the effort if you get the information you want...

Preliminary inquiries indicate that apart from changing the name of the candidate, they used the same leaflet that went out in the ward I contested. My wife talked to some people she knew in the ward and they were not canvassed by the BNP - so they didn't do a blanket canvass even though this was a new area for them. Thinking about it, immigration was most likely the key issue - Homesteads is the whitest ward in the borough. There seems to be a very defensive pull up the drawbridge mentality in the area. Investigation will continue...

...the most worrying thing is the vote the BNP got without having to put in a lot of effort...

 

[Das Uberdog]

Yup.

But, the BNP have not avoided splits and rivals anymore than the SWP/Respect have.

Thats my point. The fact that the BNP maintain hegemony pretty much would be interesting to investigate.

What splits have we had?

 

[Paul Marsh]

There were "race riots" (at least thats what the media described them as) in Wrecsam not so long ago. No doubt the BNP have played on that.

At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time since the riots.

Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.

 

[dash_two]

If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't have so much immigration.

 

[nino_savatte]

If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't have so much immigration.

What an odd thing to say. You may as well say "If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't be black, Asian or Jewish".

 

[dash_two]

No, it's not an odd thing to say. When lots of people perceive immigration to be 'too high' or 'out of control', then a party with an anti-immigration agenda will inevitably pick up more support. This is bleeding obvious.

You might want high levels of immigration for various reasons but you'll have to accept that at the same time you will increase support for an anti-immigration party. Otherwise it's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, it's not an odd thing to say. When lots of people perceive immigration to be 'too high' or 'out of control', then a party with an anti-immigration agenda will inevitably pick up more support. This is bleeding obvious.

It is an odd thing to say...or let me put it another way, by saying such things you pander to their prejudices. The BNP don't have huge support but, according to you, they seem to have acquired a massive base of support overnight.

In fact, you may as well join them, if that's how you feel.

 

[dash_two]

Join the BNP? huh, that bunch of do-gooders.

"they seem to have acquired a massive base of support overnight."

Now where did I say that?

 

[nino_savatte]

Join the BNP? huh, that bunch of do-gooders.

Not right wing enough for you - huh?

 

[fractionMan]

.

 

[dash_two]

Not right wing enough for you - huh?

You are maybe too earnest to spot irony.

 

[nino_savatte]

You are maybe too earnest to spot irony.

Maybe you should learn to use smilies, lest folk will think you're being serious.

Twat.

 

[dash_two]

Well that's charming, that is.

So, let us set aside the troubling thought that support for the BNP increases when immigration is at such a level that large numbers of people tell pollsters it's a major concern!

 

[nino_savatte]

Well that's charming, that is.

So, let us set aside the troubling thought that support for the BNP increases when immigration is at such a level that large numbers of people tell pollsters it's a major concern!

So your advice is to pander to a small far right party...that's your solution, is it?

You're not only incredibly naive, you're thick as well.

Oh and on the subject of immigration, perhaps you would do well to think on the subjects of emigration and xenophobia.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh and you weren't being "ironic" earlier.

 

[dash_two]

Like it or not, nino, high levels of immigration are widely unpopular, and in that atmosphere an anti-immigration party can be expected to reap rewards. That's just the way things are.

"Oh and you weren't being "ironic" earlier."

Nino, I wouldn't dispute your possession of certain circus skills, but I don't think mind-reading is among them.

 

[nino_savatte]

Like it or not, nino, high levels of immigration are widely unpopular, and in that atmosphere an anti-immigration party can be expected to reap rewards. That's just the way things are.

"Oh and you weren't being "ironic" earlier."

Nino, I wouldn't dispute your possession of certain circus skills, but I don't think mind-reading is among them.

You want to pander to the BNP who are not a major party.

Maybe your reason for saying all of this is to get me to call you a "racist". I'm sure you'd like that.

What does "mind reading and circus skills" have to do with any of this?

You are Swarthy Thug/Mr Lustbather.

 

[dash_two]

I'd rather pander to the majority of British public opinion and see the BNP wither on the vine. I'd guess lots of Tories were convinced that the poll tax was the right thing to do, and that abandoning it would mean caving in to left-wingers. But abandon it they had to. So it is today with immigration. There are limits on what can and can't be done in the world, and public opinion is a big part of that.

If you mean 'racist' in the left-wing sense of 'person who I don't like/agree with' then I can just about live with that. If you mean it in the more normal sense of 'person who regards other races as inferior' then leave it out, thanks.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Respect beat the BNP in 11 out of 16 wards, and Ukip in 5 out of 7.

Bit meaningless becuase both Respect and UKIP will have targetted more, fielding less candidates overall.

There is no denying the nazi vote wasnt bad, and that their strategy and Griffens analysis is astute. Griffen is right that local politics fails to reach out beyond core votes. As someone who ran for The Greens I witnessed this.

The low turnout is a disgrace and de-legitimises democracy, but the likes of Labour and Liberal simply dont care - it keeps them in power. The ongoing failure of major parties to represent anything other than corporate careerism is a major boost to the fascist cause. So is the fetish for fascism we constantly see in our press. The Green Party have loads more councillors and generally less news items devoted to us.

Racism and fascism are clearly more newsworthy than tired old crap like saving the species. Ho hum.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'd rather pander to the majority of British public opinion and see the BNP wither on the vine. I'd guess lots of Tories were convinced that the poll tax was the right thing to do, and that abandoning it would mean caving in to left-wingers. But abandon it they had to. So it is today with immigration. There are limits on what can and can't be done in the world, and public opinion is a big part of that.

If you mean 'racist' in the left-wing sense of 'person who I don't like/agree with' then I can just about live with that. If you mean it in the more normal sense of 'person who regards other races as inferior' then leave it out, thanks.

Fuck me, you're all over the shop here.

Your idea, like you, is barking. Anyone suggesting that we "eliminate immigration" to please the BNP, hasn't got a clue. You may just as well offer them a chair at the cabinet table.

As for the mythical "public opinion" of which you speak, would you care to provide some information to support your claim that your view on immigration is the "majority" view.

 

[dash_two]

As for the mythical "public opinion" of which you speak, would you care to provide some information to support your claim that your view on immigration is the "majority" view.

Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?

For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:

The best way for [Gordon] Brown to boost his popularity would be to reduce immigration, say 60% of those polled, followed by bringing British troops home from Iraq, 49%, improving the National Health Service, 37%, and making it easier to deport terrorist suspects, 30%.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1782117.ece

For the main course, another recent YouGov poll, this time in the Telegraph. When asked to list Blair's failures, at number one, with 58%, was allowing immigration to rise to unacceptable levels. See the 'click to enlarge' link on this page:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml

I've saved this last one for dessert. Even a cynic like me got a bit of a shock reading it. It's from a 2002 poll commissioned by the BBC into attitudes towards immigration. Among other questions, people were asked:

Do you think that immigration has benefited or damaged British society over the past 50 years?

30% of all respondents said it has benefitted our society. 44% said it has damaged it. 26% went for 'don't know' - probably the biggest 'don't know' response I've ever seen in a poll. (I would probably be one of them.) You'll need to scroll down and click on the questions to see the responses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/survey.stm#Immigration