Greek elections

[brogdale]

Another good piece from Mr Mason - http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/tsipras-referendum-5-july/3968#more-3968

Yes, that economic illiteracy was even highlighted by the BBC via Peston's blog where he calculated that at least 5 decades of primary surplus would still fail to erode the principle.
The right's ' call to arms' to defend the supra-national entity faces a huge sell problem...

 

[belboid]

they had an election in which the winning answer was 'you can have what you want, and it won't cost you a penny'. it turns out that that answer wasn't available - amazingly.

That was never what they argued, nothing like it. I know the 'institutions' and our media like to pretend that is what they said, but it's drivel. They argued that the terms of the EU 'bailouts' were failing and that they needed to be changed. As most economists actually agree. (see brogdale's point about Peston, above)

 

[brogdale]

 

[kebabking]

...They argued that the terms of the EU 'bailouts' were failing and that they needed to be changed. As most economists actually agree...

and that was irrelevent - they weren't having a technical debate about economic theory, they were having a political argument about money. apparently they didn't realise this.

 

[belboid]

and that was irrelevent - they weren't having a technical debate about economic theory, they were having a political argument about money. apparently they didn't realise this.

Yes they did. It isn't about abstract theory it was and is a straightforward argument about whether a particular plan worked - exactly the same as at most elections. They knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[kebabking]

...They knew exactly what they were doing.

it looks like it - Greeks emptying the banks and petrol stations, EuroGroup is meeting without them, they'll run out of money by mid-week and they'll be holding a referendum next week on a question that will have already been answered. impressive, i take it this is SYRIZA lulling those capitalist devils into a false sense of security?

 

[belboid]

it looks like it - Greeks emptying the banks and petrol stations, EuroGroup is meeting without them, they'll run out of money by mid-week and they'll be holding a referendum next week on a question that will have already been answered. impressive, i take it this is SYRIZA lulling those capitalist devils into a false sense of security?

They're fucking up the euro and quite possibly the whole EU. Not bad going.

You'd just have capitulated and driven the economy into an even bigger disaster area, I presume. Do whatever the unelected troika says.

 

[kebabking]

They're fucking up the euro and quite possibly the whole EU. Not bad going...

SYRIZA as suicide bomber?

you do, i suppose, understand who the first person to die in a suicide bombing is - don't you?

 

[belboid]

The EU policies you obviously support having been killing Greeks for years. They're the ones causing all the chaos

 

[kebabking]

The EU policies you obviously support...

i know the weathers nice, but its a bit early isn't it?



i note your solidarity with the Greek people, and how you salute the sacrifices they are about to make in support of your political agenda.

 

[treelover]

Will Syriza be blamed(long term) if they Grexit, is Golden Dawn still a player?

 

[treelover]

Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who ran the IMF when the first Greek bailout was arranged, has published a ‘mea culpa’ about the mistakes the Fund made:

He’s admitted that it should have pushed other eurozone countries to do more to help Greece and fought against the push for tough austerity, admitting that it also miscalculated the impact of such “pro-cyclical adjustment”.

And while it’s too late to change that, DSK does make a case for giving Greece debt relief now - by rolling over and extending repayments due to official creditors.

Kahn now admits the IMF should have resisted such tough austerity measures on Greece, yeah right, tell most of Africa and South America the same.

 

[hipipol]

the chaos has been caused by letting the Greek Govt of the time join the Euro in the first place
I wish the EU would actually take Goldman Sachs to the courts for helping a thieving and blatantly self serving Greek Kleptocracy to hide their debt - evil blood sucking death squid that it is an all...;
Having said that the current PM is using the tactics of a tired 3 year old on a bus
The Greek people are suffering because every single git they have ever elected has been a spineless, self serving greed monger
KIll the govt, no whingeing in the street
Blade to the throat
they farking deserve it
As for the last trick of this slime bag
Pass the buck - lets ask the people? what will the decide
They did
They chose you
Grow a pair you wafty arse seepage

 

[gosub]

on the issue of Grexit, Varoufakis insists::

Anyone who says that this referendum is about the euro is putting a very shaky interpretation on a clear fact - there are no provisions for exit from the monetary union.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

the chaos has been caused by letting the Greek Govt of the time join the Euro in the first place
I wish the EU would actually take Goldman Sachs to the courts for helping a thieving and blatantly self serving Greek Kleptocracy to hide their debt - evil blood sucking death squid that it is an all...;
Having said that the current PM is using the tactics of a tired 3 year old on a bus
The Greek people are suffering because every single git they have ever elected has been a spineless, self serving greed monger
KIll the govt, no whingeing in the street
Blade to the throat
they farking deserve it
As for the last trick of this slime bag
Pass the buck - lets ask the people? what will the decide
They did
They chose you
Grow a pair you wafty arse seepage

clown. Am I the only one who doesn't have this div on ignore?

 

[hipipol]

clown. Am I the only one who doesn't have this div on ignore?

please put my their shit brain
Idiot
The only peeps who will suffer are those he purports to represent
Bugger off arse seepage

 

[belboid]

i know the weathers nice, but its a bit early isn't it?



i note your solidarity with the Greek people, and how you salute the sacrifices they are about to make in support of your political agenda.

I note your weaselly refusal to admit what you think

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

please put my their shit brain
Idiot
The only peeps who will suffer are those he purports to represent
Bugger off arse seepage

on ignore. idiot

 

[hipipol]

who the fuck knows what you're on about? Are you disabled?

you may have been reduced to insults as your only way of communicating, perhaps you are using the current greek govt as your model, I have no way of knowing
My point, simply stated so that you may just follow it is this:-
The current govt in Greece has backed off from their mandated brief and has spinelessly turned its back on its responsibilities and pushed the difficult decisions back to the people, no doubt so that they can claim nothing is their fault
As such they are entirely consistent with the behaviour of pretty much every greek elected govt that preceded them
as for all the little boy whinge bollocks about "humiliation" etc - what a pitiful little shit
They way to sell this is to say, the people are so crushed they will rise in violence, we cannot hold the line unless you help
Trying to fucking hold them to ransome via threats of damage to the Euro (phase Merkel?; deutschemark/ostmark parity - shes been theu that, know Germany can cope), what twat advised that????
He is SOOOOOOOOO out5 of his depth it really defies belief
Grow up, grow a pair like that twat needs to
I doubt you actually see where I am coming from, but you what?
You count for nothing
As do I in this debate
BUT
At least I am not deluded in that

 

[hipipol]

on ignore. idiot

fuck off bum cheese

 

[belboid]

The current govt in Greece has backed off from their mandated brief and has spinelessly turned its back on its responsibilities and pushed the difficult decisions back to the people, no doubt so that they can claim nothing is their fault

Nonsense. They were elected to try to arrange a complete renegotiation of the Greek debt, while staying in the eu. They are trying to do that, but the eu won't let them. The Greek people - who aren't idiots - placed essentially contradictory demands on their government. They [the government] are forcing the issue, an issue that has needed forcing for years, not hiding away from.

What would you have them do? Accept the bailout terms that have only led to further recession over the last five years?

 

[hipipol]

Nonsense. They were elected to try to arrange a complete renegotiation of the Greek debt, while staying in the eu. They are trying to do that, but the eu won't let them. The Greek people - who aren't idiots - placed essentially contradictory demands on their government. They [the government] are forcing the issue, an issue that has needed forcing for years, not hiding away from.

What would you have them do? Accept the bailout terms that have only led to further recession over the last five years?

I'm on ignore
Fuck off arseseepage

 

[gosub]

Nonsense. They were elected to try to arrange a complete renegotiation of the Greek debt, while staying in the eu. They are trying to do that, but the eu won't let them. The Greek people - who aren't idiots - placed essentially contradictory demands on their government. They [the government] are forcing the issue, an issue that has needed forcing for years, not hiding away from.

What would you have them do? Accept the bailout terms that have only led to further recession over the last five years?

Having got elected on change the terms and stay in the EUro, at crunch time a referendum on which of the two incompatible demands the Greeks want more, would make sense. But he s not doing that he is still saying tell EUrope to fuck itself and stay in the EUro by voting No- to a time expired deal , no wonder talks broke down

 

[hipipol]

Nonsense. They were elected to try to arrange a complete renegotiation of the Greek debt, while staying in the eu. They are trying to do that, but the eu won't let them. The Greek people - who aren't idiots - placed essentially contradictory demands on their government. They [the government] are forcing the issue, an issue that has needed forcing for years, not hiding away from.

What would you have them do? Accept the bailout terms that have only led to further recession over the last five years?

what I would have them do is deal with the reality
The IMF has a really shit record for helping countries they have "delved" into
Could not trust them to make a fucking cheese sandwich without it costing a few years of your income
I trust them like I thrust any snakeoil slaesman
what I am saying is what you with powerful shits like that who have your bollocks in their hands is argue with them using their language, their structures, etc
They key here is a borderline state and the difficulty it poses for the Euro
They don't seem to have sold it on the basis of the potential political instability caused by crushing people to point that, tho they have voted for us it was a close run thing between us and the Nazi types, look at how the right wing thing buying minds all over Europe - spectre of the 30s blah
Instead he seems to have simply made appeals to decency and fairness
This never works
You have to show the others that their arse is hanging out and they will be the next to be bitten
This is ENTIRELY political
There is NO economic argument - Greece is dead on it feet and some sort of fictional notion that they can collect tax of the rich is farcical at best, but to be fair is tragic for the people _ I cannot begin to know what it must be like
The salient point is that Greece should NOT be in the Euro, it introduces strictures they will never be able to survive with
If they stay in, well they will be Germany's kicking boy for the rest of time
He talks of pride
Its takes pride and a strength he has yer to show, to walk away from a deal, which by its very structure fucks you over for ever
Bite the bullet Geezer

 

[belboid]

Having got elected on change the terms and stay in the EUro, at crunch time a referendum on which of the two incompatible demands the Greeks want more, would make sense. But he s not doing that he is still saying tell EUrope to fuck itself and stay in the EUro by voting No- to a time expired deal , no wonder talks broke down

He (or rather, they) are placing demands on both the electorate and the eu, or at least that's the idea. He's saying we do want to find a way to stay in the union, in the euro zone even (tho they must really have given up on that) but not at any cost.

 

[belboid]

The salient point is that Greece should NOT be in the Euro, it introduces strictures they will never be able to survive with

I agree, but those blooming Greeks seem to want to stay in. There is a (large) wing within Syria that would probably have liked to have caves, alongside a left wing that would never accept the strictures the eu demands. The leadership could never get either proposal thru parliament, so there options are to fail, either pathetically or by simply going 'fuck you', but that's not really leadership, is it? The referendum raises the stakes clearly, it will give them a much clearer mandate - they only got 37% of the vote after all - on which to go forward.

Which should be to get the fuck out of the euro as quickly as possible, and then to cancel the privatisation programme.

 

[gosub]

Vote yes for something that used to be on the table but isn't now or no for something that was never offered

 

[hipipol]

I agree, but those blooming Greeks seem to want to stay in. There is a (large) wing within Syria that would probably have liked to have caves, alongside a left wing that would never accept the strictures the eu demands. The leadership could never get either proposal thru parliament, so there options are to fail, either pathetically or by simply going 'fuck you', but that's not really leadership, is it? The referendum raises the stakes clearly, it will give them a much clearer mandate - they only got 37% of the vote after all - on which to go forward.

Which should be to get the fuck out of the euro as quickly as possible, and then to cancel the privatisation programme.

the calling of a referendum means that they plan to leave the Euro
Of course that assumes a degree of competence and an understanding of cause and effect with guys that have yet to demonstrate, unless of course, they knew they were fucked from the off and this is simply a smart way to make it pass off without violence
Not sure but I have this bizarre gut feeling that he and Cameron with to the same "how do deal with EU seminar"
Well that was a total waste of tax payers bucks/Euros/insert the curre3ncy de nos jours here - what they both are wrong about is _ going in hard gets you results
Idiots
Pair of em
PS the privitisation stuff does need some attention - if the govt accepts ALL the possible debt from their mad "buy from the krauts frenzy" - railways in particular - they're fucked before they start
They need to get some German banks, who funded the bollocks in the first place to take at least SOME of the risk back on their books
Its worth noting that Germany is currently less sensitive to the Greek govt efforts cos their banks have sold the risk to greek banks and the most loathesome of the bottom feeding hedgies

 

[belboid]

Such nonsense. They were never going to be given a straight 'take this or fuck off' deal,this is as close as they were ever likely to get. Short of implementing full communism now this was as clever as they could play it.

 

[phildwyer]

and that was irrelevent - they weren't having a technical debate about economic theory, they were having a political argument about money. apparently they didn't realise this.

Of course they did.

In fact the most positive aspect of this affair is that it brings the true nature of the usorious world-system into very clear focus. The Greek people are being asked whether the interests of capital should be ranked above the interests of humanity. That's a question everyone should be asking.