Greek elections

[CNT36]

Oh alright.

A much under-rated thinker, was Burke. The Reflections are almost unbelievably perspicacious, and not just regarding France. He understood that, how and why revolutions inevitably lead to tyranny long before anyone else.

So are you advocating tyranny now?

 

[gosub]

 

[J Ed]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...troying-greeces-economy-for-no-reason-at-all/

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce, and finally as trolling. That, at least, is the case in Greece, where its lenders want it to cut its pensions rather than hike its business taxes, because they're afraid those increases would, as the Financial Times's Peter Spiegel reports, "crimp economic growth."

Oh, so now they're worried that austerity hurts the economy. Too bad they weren't a little more concerned about that before it made Greece's economy shrink 25 percent.

Now, the latest Greek drama isn't over, but it is in its last act. A deal should—admittedly one of the more dangerous words in the English language—be imminent. The problem, as it has been for the past five years, is that Europe and Greece haven't been able to agree on what austerity the latter will do in return for money from the former. This time, Europe has wanted Greece to cut its pensions more than the 40 percent they already have, but Greece hasn't. And that was that. Both sides thought the other would cave the closer they got to the deadline, so there was a lot of talk about "red lines" and "final offers" but not much actual negotiation.

That's changed now. Why? Well, Greece has discovered it has much less leverage than it thought. Part of it is that panic about Greece has stayed in Greece because the European Central Bank has both begun to buy other countries' bonds and promised to buy as many as it takes to keep their borrowing costs down. And the rest is that Greece's banks aren't so much an Achilles heel as an Achilles whole. In other words, they're pretty easy to pressure. Greece's banks not only need emergency loans from the ECB to stay afloat, but are also sitting on a pile of Greek government bonds and deferred tax assets that would presumably be worth a lot less if there isn't a deal and Athens defaults.

...

There's only one reason to make Greece do more austerity, and it makes no sense at all. That's to try to make it pay back what it owes. Indeed, one European official said that the entire point of this was that they "want to get our money back some day." The problem, though, is everybody knows Greece will never do that. Its debt should have been written down in 2010, but it wasn't because it was "bailed out" to the extent that it was given money to then give to French and German banks. The longer Europe pretends this new debt will be paid back, the longer Greece's depression will go on. Now, it's true that Europe has lowered the interest rates and extended the maturities on Greece's debt so far out that, for now at least, it's like a lot of it doesn't exist. But eventually it will, and at that point they'll either need to extend-and-pretend some more or hope that Greece has returned to growth.

 

[hot air baboon]

...so they're not going to make a drachma out of a crisis then...

 

[phildwyer]

All I'm saying is that words have history.

And the history of "usury" has largely been forgotten, to the extent that most people today have no idea what it is. They need to be reminded.

 

[phildwyer]

...so they're not going to make a drachma out of a crisis then...

What's a Grecian Urn anyway?

 

[CNT36]

And the history of "usury" has largely been forgotten, to the extent that most people today have no idea what it is. They need to be reminded.

Every other post is a start I guess.

 

[belboid]

Another good piece from Paul Mason - Eurocommunism, bringing a knife to a gunfight

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/words-civil-war-longer-joke-greece/3924

 

[Ming]

It'll be a bit of a let down if the Greek government gives up. Makes you wonder whether it was all decided months or years ago behind closed doors. Y'know management of change and all that.

 

[Diamond]

Another good piece from Paul Mason - Eurocommunism, bringing a knife to a gunfight

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/words-civil-war-longer-joke-greece/3924

I like Mason - he was excellent on newsnight, where he was obviously forced to rein in his more leftie views, but I think he probably has been given a bit more freedom on C4, which has meant that his reports have become a bit more ranty and less illuminating for lack of editorial control. Not that the ideas in them are bad, it's just that they're often not as coherent as they were on the beeb.

But that is a really good post from him, bringing up all sorts of stuff that people still don't really get about the Greek crisis.

This has been rumbling on for so long now that people think that there is some kind of status quo of "Greeks need a bit more cash, we find a fiver behind the sofa - sorted".

What is at stake is much, much larger than that.

 

[belboid]

This has been rumbling on for so long now that people think that there is some kind of status quo of "Greeks need a bit more cash, we find a fiver behind the sofa - sorted".

I don't think there's a person on the planet who believes that

 

[Idris2002]

Anyway, it's ixnay on the outbailway, according to this (RT, and yes I know, I know, I'll see if I can find a better source):

http://rt.com/business/269359-greece-debt-crisis-tsipras/

 

[belboid]

it's ixnay on the outbailway,

it's whatty what?

 

[Idris2002]

it's whatty what?

I said it's NIX on the BAILOUT.

I was typing in PIG LATIN.

 

[belboid]

I said it's NIX on the BAILOUT.

I was typing in PIG LATIN.

looks like bloc capitals to me

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I said it's NIX on the BAILOUT.

I was typing in PIG LATIN.

Ooooh look at me, I'm so fancy I can speak Latin!

 

[Idris2002]

Ooooh look at me, I'm so fancy I can speak Latin!

Timeo danao et dona ferentes.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Timeo danao et dona ferentes.

Whatevs. It's all Greek to me.

 

[Idris2002]

Whatevs. It's all Greek to me.

Νίκη ΣΥΡΙΖΑ και του ελληνικού λαού!

 

[hipipol]

playing hardball chicken with Merkel is, I suspect, a safe bet to lose
Think they have already decided they are on the way out and are playing to the home crowd - hardly seems to be based on a desire to please the creditors

 

[Idris2002]

playing hardball chicken with Merkel is, I suspect, a safe bet to lose
Think they have already decided they are on the way out and are playing to the home crowd - hardly seems to be based on a desire to please the creditors

This is not a game, Tsipras says:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...he-point-a-nation-can-reach-when-humiliated/#

And on the contrary standing up to the Merk is the only language she understands.

 

[hipipol]

This is not a game, Tsipras says:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...he-point-a-nation-can-reach-when-humiliated/#

And on the contrary standing up to the Merk is the only language she understands.

Standing up? comparing her to Hitler?
Plain abuse my friend and not much of a negotiating tactic

 

[Idris2002]

Standing up? comparing her to Hitler?
Plain abuse my friend and not much of a negotiating tactic

When has he compared her to Hitler?

 

[hipipol]

When has he compared her to Hitler?

sorry, he equated her with a death camp guard, or was that just some other idiot from his party?
She should just buy the greek debt then tell em to fuck off
they couldn't run a piss up.........etc
enough
Drachma returns?
Best answer otherwise the Greek people will have penury in perpetuity
The idea that economies as diverse as Germany and Greece can all prosper under the remit of a single currency run on a Teutonic or Anglo Saxon or even a French model is absurd
From a creditors perspective Govt pensions available at 50 while very few fuckers pay tax...never get yer wedge back
Begging for alms is one thing, threatening to bring down the temple?
Merkel as Salome?
if needs be eh?

 

[phildwyer]

Tspiras has called a referendum for July 5.

I think it's a mistake myself, he already has a mandate. On the other hand, if he gets a thumping majority for defying the usurers it might well encourage les autres.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I think its a smart move by Tspiras. The troika has decided they are going to fuck greece up the arse for electing a non-compliant government - leaving Syriza in an impossible position. If they take the deal they utterly betray their voters - if they walk they will face a pro-austerity backlash from neo-liberal forces within greece. A referendum gives them the political cover to cut and run. More austerity allows no hope - an exit from the Euro will be very tough - but may lead to better times - as well as sticking it to the ECB/IMF.
I always expected that the result of the Syriza victory in Jan would be a classic Euro fudge that allowed a relaxing of austerity but made to look like the troika looking tough. Instead their behaviour has been utterly destructive and they look intent on humiliating Syriza for daring to get uppity - even thought it delivers a serious blow to whole Euro thang.

 

[brogdale]

Tspiras has called a referendum for July 5.

I think it's a mistake myself, he already has a mandate. On the other hand, if he gets a thumping majority for defying the usurers it might well encourage les autres.

Agreed, though it does look a bit like Syriza's final negotiating ploy that they've, thus far, kept in reserve. Tsipras' timing of this statement of intent, just in advance of the "final" EcoFin meeting, is the point, of course.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I'd be surprised if said 'neo-liberal forces within Greece' weren't getting some external help at this point in the game.

 

[brogdale]

I think this is, essentially, it.

 

[phildwyer]

I think its a smart move by Tspiras. The troika has decided they are going to fuck greece up the arse for electing a non-compliant government - leaving Syriza in an impossible position. If they take the deal they utterly betray their voters - if they walk they will face a pro-austerity backlash from neo-liberal forces within greece. A referendum gives them the political cover to cut and run. More austerity allows no hope - an exit from the Euro will be very tough - but may lead to better times - as well as sticking it to the ECB/IMF.
I always expected that the result of the Syriza victory in Jan would be a classic Euro fudge that allowed a relaxing of austerity but made to look like the troika looking tough. Instead their behaviour has been utterly destructive and they look intent on humiliating Syriza for daring to get uppity - even thought it delivers a serious blow to whole Euro thang.

The troika can't concede too much without threatening the fundamental principle on which the entire world-system of usury depends: debts are sacred and must be repaid whatever the cost. They're well aware that debtors throughout the world are watching, and will naturally demand similar concessions to any granted to Greece.

The referendum looks like a gamble to me, I hope Syriza have done their polling properly. It could go horribly wrong if the Greek people lose their nerve. But if it does give Tsipras a renewed or expanded mandate it will lay bare the real nature of the conflict--capital versus humanity--and should inspire others to follow Syriza's lead, most notably Spain.