The destruction of capitalism need only be feared by the owners of capital.
Greek elections
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
The destruction of capitalism need only be feared by the owners of capital.
Really? Someone on another thread may disagree.
I'm not a fan of capitalism but that is a sort of an end point or a conclusion for me. There are a number of things personal, material and global that concern me and as long as capitalism persists they are likely to persist. You seem to be the other way round. Capitalism for you is the problem and everything else stems from that. Left/right etc don't matter as long as capitalism is defeated. Smash it and if the next system upto the plate perpetuates the same injustices or even accelerates them that can be dealt with at the time? Bollocks to that.
Its interesting that you decry people as warmongers for supporting a possible alternative to capitalism because it may inconvenience you but couldn't give a fuck for those who could end up in a warzone, a dictatorship, poverty or in some other way upto their necks in shit as long as capitalism is smashed.
Who does capitalism benefit?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Have you read the article in question?
The point made is that - given the balance of forces, given the growth in support for the far right across Europe, given historical parallels, given that there isn't organised motivated working class ready to mount a challenge - what might follow capitalism being 'smashed' could be much worse.
The article does not pretend capitalism benefits anyone bar the obvious.
The point made is that - given the balance of forces, given the growth in support for the far right across Europe, given historical parallels, given that there isn't organised motivated working class ready to mount a challenge - what might follow capitalism being 'smashed' could be much worse.
The article does not pretend capitalism benefits anyone bar the obvious.
I'll leave that one to you I'm sure you can come up with a couple of contradictory answers.
This isn't about who it benefits it is about the fact it exists and it is dominant. There is a chance that everyone in our society even capital's alleged owners, perhaps them least of all, could end up in a considerably worse situation if it were to be smashed at tea time.
Have you read the article in question?
The point made is that - given the balance of forces, given the growth in support for the far right across Europe, given historical parallels, given that there isn't organised motivated working class ready to mount a challenge - what might follow capitalism being 'smashed' could be much worse.
The article does not pretend capitalism benefits anyone bar the obvious.
I did read it. Both it and you suggest that dismantling capitalism should not be the main priority. But I think it should, because I don't think capitalism benefits anyone. So I assumed you thought it does benefit someone (or even everyone)....
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Then you assumed wrong - which is why I assumed you were posting without actually reading what the article or my comment on it
I had you confused withCNT36, sorry..,
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yeah, implosion is much more likely than phildwyer or anyone else smashing anything. Yanis argument was that if captial collapses then the general drift to the right across Europe threatens to bring much much worse. On that point he is spot on imho.
It's his job to stop that happening.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
That does seem to be how he sees it Phil.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I think that, if I were are capitalist, I'd be quite happy with that sort of 'Marxist' analysis.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Interesting interview with Paul Mason over at Democracy Now...
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/2/18/rejecting_austerity_greece_squares_off_with
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/2/18/rejecting_austerity_greece_squares_off_with
Flavour
hang the bankers
It's an interesting argument. But really there is no question of global capitalism being "smashed" in the immediate future, no matter what the Greek government do. So who really stands to win/lose in the immediate future? Ordinary Greeks. What would be best for them? We're seeing, ever more transparently, that national governments are mere tools for the forces of global capital to use or discard. The people, that is, the "populous" and not their elected representatives are the only force capable of challenging that, and any belief in syriza as an agent of lasting and material change in the way Greece is run is deluded. Our governments are all under the same pressures to a lesser degree.
Syriza has only one option if it wants to maintain, let alone improve its capacity to deliver anything at all of substance, and that is to tell everyone to get fucked and just default, leaving the euro in the process and letting others pick up the pieces. Come what may, at least they won't be accused of cowardice, though of course, like all short-sighted politicians, they're paralysed by the fear of being help responsible for the potential consequences of their actions.
May reformist "erratic" Marxism wither and die!
Όλα δωρεάν
Syriza has only one option if it wants to maintain, let alone improve its capacity to deliver anything at all of substance, and that is to tell everyone to get fucked and just default, leaving the euro in the process and letting others pick up the pieces. Come what may, at least they won't be accused of cowardice, though of course, like all short-sighted politicians, they're paralysed by the fear of being help responsible for the potential consequences of their actions.
May reformist "erratic" Marxism wither and die!
Όλα δωρεάν
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
One thing which has just occurred to me, prior to becoming finance minister Varoufakis repeatedly argued in favour of a Greek exit from the Euro but Syriza were elected on an electoral platform in which they pledged to maintain the euro. Could Syriza be in part working towards demonstrating the intransigence of the EU to the Greek people in order to move them towards support of the Greek exit which some members of Syriza actually want?
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
I remembered today that Goldman Sacks were implicated in covering up the level of Greek debt and thus helped to contribute to Greece's present insolvency crisis. I just looked this up and wikipedia tells me the following:
So, the troika and the EU have, at their highest levels, former members of an organisation that significantly contributed to Greece's present debt crisis. That is both utterly staggering and totally unsurprising at the same time.
So, the troika and the EU have, at their highest levels, former members of an organisation that significantly contributed to Greece's present debt crisis. That is both utterly staggering and totally unsurprising at the same time.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I thought that Syriza were factionally riven on this issue anyway. I presumed that the 'stay put' faction were the larger/more powerful.
The more important point is that a lot of Greece's initial debt was loaned to them by Eurozone countries so that they could purchase, amongst other things, German goods. Many people tend to ignore that for some reason. It's not too dissimilar from those "finance" deals where the person who is providing the, usually quite unfair, loan is in cahoots with the person who is selling the good that you are getting the loan to buy. The only wrinkle is that the Greeks were absolute cretins nonetheless.
Going to be a very interesting day today. The Greek government tried to capitulate honourably yesterday and were immediately slapped down by the Germans. I suspect all this has got rather unnecessarily personal, largely because of the massive egos of the Greek finance and prime ministers.
Maybe the finance guy is playing some super sophisticated strategy but from where I'm standing, he looks like a self-regarding plonker.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
"Tied aid" used to be the phrase in the realm of 'development' economics.
So basically Germany is Brighthouse? High risk lending with ridiculous interest and conditions so people can buy their overpriced goods?
I wonder how their more left wing voters are feeling now, in fact all their voters who expected them to refuse Troika demands.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
well i'd be stunned, i mean just imagine, a Greek politician telling people they could have shiny things at no cost to themselves and it turning out not to be true.
ok, so it follows the pattern of every Greek government elected since Socrates, but you can't blame the Greek electorate for trusting people who told them they could all have their own Unicorn that shit gold bricks, could you?
Flavour
hang the bankers
Please do not make off-hand references to ancient Athenian democracy if you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
It does sound like pure bullshit
ska invita
back on the other side
i had presumed that Syriza were up for Grexit if push came to shove, and had that as a heavy negotiating card with the Troika... knowing that the EU doesnt want them to go (for fear of default and contagion) allows them some negotiating powers and so doesnt mean they need to rush for the door at the first chance.
But so far that doesn't seem to have played out much...it might still. At this point it seems like a lot of horsemanship - the proof will be in the final result pudding. Thats how it seems to me anyhow.
