Greek elections

[butchersapron]

An old tankie (now foreign minister) meet Dugin in some capacity in 2013. He (Nikos Kotzias) was teaching there at the time (Piraeus University) and Dugin did a guest lecture and Kotzias was moderator of the discussion.

 

[Idris2002]

An old tankie (now foreign minister) meet Dugin in some capacity in 2013 - or at least was prepared to have hos pic took with him. He (Nikos Kotzias) was teaching there at the time (Piraeus University) and Dugin did a guest lecture and Kotzias was moderator of the discussion.

For mine own part it was Greek to me.

Shure, all them extremists is the same, like?

 

[J Ed]

I see they're now screaming and roaring about some alleged Syriza connection with that wrong'un eurasianist Dugin. Anyone got the real facts there?

I have been reading around this a little bit. I am still pretty unsure of the veracity of it but the claim has come at least in part from Anton Shekhovtsov who featured here previously on the Ukraine thread, he is a former Eurasianist turned apologist for pro-Western/fascist forces in Ukraine. Does anyone have evidence of/translations of these alleged e-mails between Dugin's people and Syriza? Do we know the actual content of these e-mails?

Is it really anything significant beyond a McCarthyite talking point for neocons like James Bloodworth?

 

[Idris2002]

And here's the Radio Free Europe piece I was thinking of:

http://www.rferl.org/content/greek-syriza-deep-ties-russian-eurasianist-dugin/26818523.html

"
At the end of May 2014, Dugin and Malofeyev hosted representatives of these movements -- including Syriza -- at a secret conference in Vienna, according to media reports.

At that meeting, researcher Shekhovtsov says, Dugin and Malofeyev "met with representatives of the Austrian Freedom Party, of Bulgarian Ataka, of the French Front Nationale. All of these are far-right parties.""

I find it hard to believe that Syriza, given its roots, would sit down at a table with such trash (and the "media reports" alluded to there are left unspecified). Surely at least some of the constituent groups that make up Syriza would have an anti-fascist record?

 

[J Ed]

And here's the Radio Free Europe piece I was thinking of:

http://www.rferl.org/content/greek-syriza-deep-ties-russian-eurasianist-dugin/26818523.html

"
At the end of May 2014, Dugin and Malofeyev hosted representatives of these movements -- including Syriza -- at a secret conference in Vienna, according to media reports.

At that meeting, researcher Shekhovtsov says, Dugin and Malofeyev "met with representatives of the Austrian Freedom Party, of Bulgarian Ataka, of the French Front Nationale. All of these are far-right parties.""

I find it hard to believe that Syriza, given its roots, would sit down at a table with such trash (and the "media reports" alluded to there are left unspecified). Surely at least some of the constituent groups that make up Syriza would have an anti-fascist record?

It doesn't sound true at all to me.

 

[Idris2002]

It doesn't sound true at all to me.

There are things that pass the smell test - and then there are things that don't.

 

[J Ed]

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...legations-of-supposed-relations-with-a-dugin/

Greek Foreign Ministry press release

Thursday, 29 January 2015
In a Financial Times article published on 28 January, reference is made to groundless claims regarding the existence of relations between Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias and Russian professor Aleksandr Dugin. The article mentions the false claim that Mr. Kotzias invited Mr. Dugin to an event at the University of Piraeus. As stated in a denial issued by the University of Piraeus itself, Mr. Kotzias never invited Mr. Dugin to the lecture in question and, contrary to claims made in the article, never traveled to Moscow to meet with him.

The article also falsely states that a relevant statement was requested from Mr. Kotzias, but that he would not provide one. Basic journalistic ethics require that the writers of the article should have crosschecked and confirmed before the publishing of this unfounded information, which, reproduced on the internet and through other news media, is creating inaccurate and unfounded impressions.

This sort of neo-McCarthyism reminds me of the desperate Redless Scare language aimed at Farage by commentariat liberals like Dan Hodges. Also, what a joke to accuse Syriza of being stooges of Putin after the global great and the good have just returned from their kowtowing session to the absolute ruler of one of the worst regimes on the face of the planet.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Is that from today's Guardian? I can't tell from the picture. If so, it confirms that even liberal capitalists are increasingly aware of the surreal nature of today's "economy." In fact they're probably better aware of it than orthodox socialists.

I love the fact that anything you don't understand is automatically labelled 'surreal' and 'mystical'.

 

[phildwyer]

I love the fact that anything you don't understand is automatically labelled 'surreal' and 'mystical'.

As I said, I don't have time to get into this today.

But it's not a matter of my not understanding. There's nothing to understand. Nothing happened when Germany supposedly "gave money" to Greece. And nothing happened when this money allegedly "fell into a black hole."

Nothing physical that is. But something happened at the level of symbol, of representation. Figures were transferred across computer screens. That's all, nothing more.

Now, to allow changes in symbolic representation to affect the condition of the objective world is the classical definition of magical thinking. I put it to you that late capitalism is an absolutely paradigmatic instance of such thought.

 

[coley]

Left wing party gets elected, various rumours aimed at discrediting them start circulating faster than a fart in a lift

As I said, I don't have time to get into this today.

But it's not a matter of my not understanding. There's nothing to understand. Nothing happened when Germany supposedly "gave money" to Greece. And nothing happened when this money allegedly "fell into a black hole."

Nothing physical that is. But something happened at the level of symbol, of representation. Figures were transferred across computer screens. That's all, nothing more.

Now, to allow changes in symbolic representation to affect the condition of the objective world is the classical definition of magical thinking. I put it to you that late capitalism is an absolutely paradigmatic instance of such thought.

Must be nice being you, the numbers on your bank statements are of no consequence whatsoever, just a mystical concept, the OD bit is simply magicked away

 

[phildwyer]

Must be nice being you, the numbers on your bank statements are of no consequence whatsoever, just a mystical concept, the OD bit is simply magicked away

That's not how it works, unfortunately.

Everybody in our society is forced to behave as if money were real, even in the full knowledge that it is nothing of the sort. It is known as "living a lie."

 

[coley]

That's not how it works, unfortunately.

Everybody in our society is forced to behave as if money were real, even in the full knowledge that it is nothing of the sort. It is known as "living a lie."

I'll try your reasoning at the checkout later today, be interesting to find out if the local nick provides WiFI.

 

[phildwyer]

I'll try your reasoning at the checkout later today, be interesting to find out if the local nick provides WiFI.

Coley, if you think money is real, post a picture of some. I'll bet you fifty quid you can't.

 

[coley]

Coley, if you think money is real, post a picture of some. I'll bet you fifty quid you can't.

Ok

£ 50 you owe me, don't try paying using bitcoin either!

 

[phildwyer]

Ok
View attachment 67071

Ha he walks into my trap.

That is not money. Those are symbols of money. See, more complicated than you thought is it not?

Now you owe me fifty quid, how would you like to pay?

 

[coley]

Ha he walks into my trap.

That is not money. Those are symbols of money. See, more complicated than you thought is it not?

Now you owe me fifty quid, how would you like to pay?

Ah, weasling out of your bet already, knew it would come to that.

 

[phildwyer]

Ah, weasling out of your bet already, knew it would come to that.

Coley, banknotes are not money. When for example Greece borrows a billion quid from the EU, do you think someone drops a sack of banknotes off in Athens? No they do not. And so we see that banknotes cannot be money.

Do you understand now? I'll take that fifty quid by direct deposit please.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I suspect that £50 whether real or imaginary is not going to change hands here.

 

[phildwyer]

I suspect that £50 whether real or imaginary is not going to change hands here.

Butchers still owes me a grand from when he bet that I wasn't Welsh.

 

[coley]

Coley, banknotes are not money. When for example Greece borrows a billion quid from the EU, do you think someone drops a sack of banknotes off in Athens? No they do not. And so we see that banknotes cannot be money.

Do you understand now? I'll take that fifty quid by direct deposit please.

Phil the weasel,now there's a surprise, banknotes and coins have worth,electronic deposits are converted into notes which have worth, when was the last time you did the shopping?
Or are you typing away in a 'in a secure environment' ?

 

[brogdale]

Ha he walks into my trap.

That is not money. Those are symbols of money. See, more complicated than you thought is it not?

Now you owe me fifty quid, how would you like to pay?

£ might well be symbolic of something, but it most certainly is not money....yer muppet.

 

[phildwyer]

Phil the weasel,now there's a surprise, banknotes and coins have worth,electronic deposits are converted into notes which have worth,

So it's "worth" now is it?

And just where is this "worth" of which you speak? Can you touch it, taste it, or feel it?

You cannot. In what sense then does it exist? Not in a physical sense. In a metaphysical sense then. Pay up.

 

[phildwyer]

£ might well be symbolic of something, but it most certainly is not money.....

That's what I'm saying. It's Coley who's saying that it is money. Thank you for your support.

I don't suppose you've any ideas on how I might collect from the welshing bastard?

 

[SpackleFrog]

But it's not a matter of my not understanding. There's nothing to understand.

Of course, of course. I mean, if there were, you'd understand it wouldn't you?

Now, to allow changes in symbolic representation to affect the condition of the objective world is the classical definition of magical thinking.

I think you're magic.

 

[brogdale]

That's what I'm saying. It's Coley who's saying that it is money. Thank you for your support.

I don't suppose you've any ideas on how I might collect from the welshing bastard?

You seem a little confused; is it drinks time in the United States?
You said..

That is not money. Those are symbols of money.

...which is arrant nonsense.

 

[andysays]

Coley, banknotes are not money. When for example Greece borrows a billion quid from the EU, do you think someone drops a sack of banknotes off in Athens? No they do not. And so we see that banknotes cannot be money.

Do you understand now? I'll take that fifty quid by direct deposit please.

All that demonstrates is that bank notes are not the only form of money, not the only way it can be represented or transferred from one person to another. And this is hardly news to any of us.

This is a perfect example of what I referred to elsewhere as your "assertion dressed up as argument and attempting to perform some slight of hand to make the whole thing look credible". And that this is your general form of "debate" is hardly news to most of us either.

 

[J Ed]

 

[coley]

So it's "worth" now is it?

And just where is this "worth" of which you speak? Can you touch it, taste it, or feel it?

You cannot. In what sense then does it exist? Not in a physical sense. In a metaphysical sense then. Pay up.

Have a look at a note, the bit where it says "I promise to pay the bearer" might offer you a clue, but given your a clueless bugger in the first place I don't hold out much hope.

 

[phildwyer]

Now that's what I call a leader.

 

[phildwyer]

All that demonstrates is that bank notes are not the only form of money, not the only way it can be represented or transferred from one person to another. And this is hardly news to any of us.

This isn't the place to get into this argument.

But I will say that the interview with Varoufakis gives me a glimmer of hope that your kind of delusion will not be around for much longer.

BTW did anyone else notice that, at the very end, he says "deconstructive" where he means "destructive?" That shows what he's been reading.