Greek elections

[phildwyer]

The Daily Mash on fine form:

"GREEK voters have defied expectation by choosing not to be beaten like cringing dogs for the next five years.

Offered the choice between another half-decade of soaring unemployment and plummeting household incomes or a bit of a change, the Greek electorate has stunned Europe by making the wrong decision.

The ruling New Democracy party is still wondering how its platform of Endless Suffering For Everyone was defeated by Syriza’s competing message of Maybe Not That.

Athens voter Elena Mitropoulos said: “I was going to do the responsible thing and vote for continuing austerity, because I know how important it is not to damage the German economy, but madness overtook me in the polling booth.

“Now we face a future of working hospitals, of recovering industry, of my children not begging for food in the streets. I wish I had not been so rash.”

EU technocrat Denys Finch Hatton said: “There is a very real danger that people across Europe, inspired by the Greeks, will no longer choose to be ruled against their best interests by people they never voted for living in massive wealth hundreds of miles away.

“Though we hope they will follow the fine example Scotland set and continue to do just that.”"

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-having-shit-kicked-out-of-them-2015012694755

 

[SpackleFrog]

if I were Greek I'd want the Drachma back and I'd want to have pretty much all of the previous elite/power brokers taken out and shot

Firstly it's worth bearing in mind that pro euro/EU sentiment in Greece is still quite strong (surprisingly). Secondly you can't just bring the Drachma back, there's the question of persuading people it's worth something to be dealt with.

 

[camouflage]

Open Letter from the bloke who now runs Greece to the German people:

Most of you, dear [German] readers, will have formed a preconception of what this article is about before you actually read it. I am imploring you not to succumb to such preconceptions. Prejudice was never a good guide, especially during periods when an economic crisis reinforces stereotypes and breeds biggotry, nationalism, even violence.

In 2010, the Greek state ceased to be able to service its debt. Unfortunately, European officials decided to pretend that this problem could be overcome by means of the largest loan in history on condition of fiscal austerity that would, with mathematical precision, shrink the national income from which both new and old loans must be paid. An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity.

In other words, Europe adopted the tactics of the least reputable bankers who refuse to acknowledge bad loans, preferring to grant new ones to the insolvent entity so as to pretend that the original loan is performing while extending the bankruptcy into the future. Nothing more than common sense was required to see that the application of the 'extend and pretend' tactic would lead my country to a tragic state. That instead of Greece's stabilization, Europe was creating the circumstances for a self-reinforcing crisis that undermines the foundations of Europe itself.

My party, and I personally, disagreed fiercely with the May 2010 loan agreement not because you, the citizens of Germany, did not give us enough money but because you gave us much, much more than you should have and our government accepted far, far more than it had a right to. Money that would, in any case, neither help the people of Greece (as it was being thrown into the black hole of an unsustainable debt) nor prevent the ballooning of Greek government debt, at great expense to the Greek and German taxpayer.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...germany-what-you-were-never-told-about-greece

 

[belboid]

Interesting stuff from Paul Mason:

People looking for political synergies between Syriza and ANEL will find them in just one area: geopolitical stance towards Russia. And this is deeply rooted. Tsipras’s party emerged out of a split with pro-Moscow communism - but the Greek people have both religious affinities with Russia (orthodox Christianity) and historic sympathy (via the Communist-led resistance movement during the war). Meanwhile the Russian sanctions on EU agricultural exports have hit Greece hard.

Economically, meanwhile, Syriza can rely on the support or abstention of 15 communist MPs, who have refused to join a coalition, in any economic measures against austerity. Even if the communist KKE refuses to back nationalisations, wage rises and welfare increases on principle, just by abstaining it gives Syriza - voting alone - a majority on any measures.

Tsipras’s original position was that he would call a referendum if the ECB tried to force Greece out of the eurozone, or tried to veto anti-austerity measures. Given his unexpectedly high 36 per cent vote, the wipeout of the Democratic Left (which refused to join Syriza), and the surge of positivity that’s happened in the political centre since he won, my guess, after speaking to party activists, is that now he would do something different.

If he can enfranchise 200,000 18-year-olds the government refused to put on the register, and change the law to allow a further 200,000 Greek recent emigres to vote at embassies abroad, Syriza could probably win a snap second election.

- See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/tsipras-reverse-shock-doctrine/3155#sthash.UnDB47vW.dpuf

 

[phildwyer]

Open Letter from the bloke who now runs Greece to the German people

The whole conversation is surreal. "You gave us money, it went into a black hole etc." It's easy to forget that nothing actually happened in the transactions he's discussing. There was no money in any physical sense, any more than there was an actual "black hole." All that really happened was that someone typed some numbers on a computer screen. And yet that non-action affects the destiny of millions of human beings.

Surreal, in the literal and precise sense of the word. The world is insane.

 

[yield]

The whole conversation is surreal. "You gave us money, it went into a black hole etc." It's easy to forget that nothing actually happened in the transactions he's discussing. There was no money in any physical sense, any more than there was an actual "black hole." All that really happened was that someone typed some numbers on a computer screen. And yet that non-action affects the destiny of millions of human beings.

Surreal, in the literal and precise sense of the word. The world is insane.

How many times? Every asset is matched by a liability. It's not just "numbers on a computer screen"

critique of loon theories around banking/money creation/the federal reserve

"Banks create money out of nothing" - Guardian

Taking on the currency cranks

But you are right it is insane.

 

[J Ed]

Yanis Varoufakis has responded to accusations of Syriza being stooges etc of Putin

On the first day in our ministries, the power of the media to distort hit me again. The world’s press was full of reports on how the SYRIZA government’s first foreign policy ‘move’ was to veto fresh sanctions on Russia. Now, I am not qualified to speak on foreign affairs but, nonetheless, I must share this with you at a personal level. Our Foreign Minister, Nikos Kotzias, briefed us that on his first day at the job he heard in the news bulletins that the EU had approved new sanctions on Russia unanimously. The problem was that he, and the new Greek government, were never asked! So, clearly, the issue was not whether our new government agrees or not with fresh sanctions on Russia. The issue is whether our view can be taken for granted without even being told of what it is! From my perspective, even though (let me state it again) I am certainly not qualified to speak on foreign affairs, this is all about a question of respect for our national sovereignty. Could journalists the world over try to draw this important distinction between protesting our being neglected from protesting the sanctions themselves? Or is this too complicated?

 

[phildwyer]

How many times? Every asset is matched by a liability. It's not just "numbers on a computer screen"

I'm not going to get into this here. But I made no general or theoretical claims. I merely pointed out that, when the Germans allegedly "gave money" to the Greeks, nothing material actually happened.

Which is undeniable. Now you may very well say: "but it meant that something had happened," or "it caused something to happen." But the fact is that the supposed "transfer of money" was a pseudo-event. Nothing happened.

There is no prior period of human history when that purely abstract transaction would have had any importance whatsoever.

The fact that it is so vitally important in our era is the root of all our problems.

As I say, I don't have time for a proper debate about this now. So I'll simply endorse our point of agreement:

But you are right it is insane.

 

[The39thStep]

who did the Greek chapter of Nigel Irritable's lot vote for ?

 

[camouflage]

The whole conversation is surreal. "You gave us money, it went into a black hole etc." It's easy to forget that nothing actually happened in the transactions he's discussing. There was no money in any physical sense, any more than there was an actual "black hole." All that really happened was that someone typed some numbers on a computer screen. And yet that non-action affects the destiny of millions of human beings.

Surreal, in the literal and precise sense of the word. The world is insane.

Hm... not everything that matters here inside of human reality is 'physical', we use critical notional values all the time. You yourself I understand, are particularly partial to a number of characters written in a page describing abstract values. I do disagree with many things about the current setup, but typing values into a computer screen is a cornerstone of how we are able to organize our modern world, and before computers, scrawling numbers onto bits of paper was a cornerstone. We even live and organize our lives within the confines of squiggly lines scrawled on abstract pictures of our physical environment. What is money anyway but a rationing system... I'd go so far as to say that attempts to dismiss notional values of who owes what to whom as not existing in principal can be a Trojan Horse for dismissing as not-really-existing those obligations owed to the powerless.

 

[phildwyer]

typing values into a computer screen is a cornerstone of how we are able to organize our modern world

Yes indeed it is. And aren't we doing a good job of it?

 

[belboid]

who did the Greek chapter of Nigel Irritable's lot vote for ?

They both supported Syriza, despite its limitations

 

[SpackleFrog]

who did the Greek chapter of Nigel Irritable's lot vote for ?

Xekinima is supportive of Syriza but refused to dissolve into it. You can get a flavour from this: http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/7055

 

[camouflage]

Yes indeed it is. And aren't we doing a good job of it?

Not really, I think we should type values into a computer screen in a different way. But the principal of ideas, values and computer screens is sound. It's really just about the management of obligations isn't it, the idea that obligations can be written on a tab and moved around is insane and an outrage is to miss the point imho.

 

[The39thStep]

They both supported Syriza, despite its limitations

Good to see that they have moved on from third period Trotskyism

 

[SpackleFrog]

They both supported Syriza, despite its limitations

Original.

 

[phildwyer]

Not really, I think we should type values into a computer screen in a different way. But the principal of ideas, values and computer screens is sound. It's really just about the management of obligations isn't it, the idea that obligations can be written on a tab and moved around is insane and an outrage is to miss the point imho.

Man I really wish I had time to get into this. I can't today, got a deadline, but I'll try and respond properly tomorrow.

 

[camouflage]

There is no prior period of human history when that purely abstract transaction would have had any importance whatsoever.

Come on, Popes and Caliphs and Kings and things were always defining purely abstract transactions in the past, often leading to a lot of people dying. We've always done this kind of thing. It's not that there is 'fiat', it's who's fiat and to serve whose purpose. It's about power.

 

[belboid]

Original.

c'mon, the article on why TUSC is our Syriza is almost as funny as the attempt by Left Unity to claim the same

 

[butchersapron]

A few thoughts: lot of the leftish commentary right now is concentrating on parliamentary numbers and parliamentary outcomes (see that mason piece above) rather than what the syriza victory (and one possibly in 3 or 4 months time) might detonate socially. How are people/networks/groups/commuities preparing to support Syriza's plans or to push them further (is this wanted?) How are the Oligarchs organising against potential threats? Politically? Socially? Within the state? With who? The far right? Are the KKE going to organise strikes against Syriza (they maintain real significant influence among the unions and centrally placed w/c and have led very militant strikes - albeit tightly controlled by them)? In the only comparable period (PASOK victory in 1981) they helf back strikes but they were a very different party with a different leadership and different strategy then - theier third positionism should surely entail not only not abstaining against Syriza in parliament but voting against their plans whilst using their industrial muscle outside to cause further problems.

So if anyone sees any stuff like that rather than the rubbish that's appeared above this post about value and other waffle (and that's all it is on this thread until or unless it's integrated into real concrete political analysis) could they post it up please?

 

[phildwyer]

Come on, Popes and Caliphs and Kings and things were always defining purely abstract transactions in the past, often leading to a lot of people dying. We've always done this kind of thing. It's not that there is 'fiat', it's who's fiat and to serve whose purpose. It's about power.

Just when I thought I was out....

Never before the capitalist era has money been allowed the degree of abstraction or autonomy that it enjoys today. Never before has it been allowed to reproduce unfettered by any human control. In fact the independent power of money is as good a definition as any of capitalism.

 

[phildwyer]

the rubbish that's appeared above this post about value and other waffle (and that's all it is on this thread until or unless it's integrated into real concrete political analysis)

Someone rattling your cage young Sergei?

 

[camouflage]

Just when I thought I was out....

Never before the capitalist era has money been allowed the degree of abstraction or autonomy that it enjoys today. Never before has it been allowed to reproduce unfettered by any human control. In fact the independent power of money is as good a definition as any of capitalism.

Oh come on, it's not the money's fault, why do people always need to blame the money, why not blame the alphabet, or numbers, or the equator. It's like buying into this idea that there's something called 'market forces' that human beings dare not interfere with. At the end of the day it comes down to people and power, all the other stuff is just a means of communication.

German banks are more powerful than the Greek people or the German tax-payers, something did happen and something can be done about it to redress the balance. I'm not sure I'm communicating well at this point so I'll stop.

 

[phildwyer]

Oh come on, it's not the money's fault, why do people always need to blame the money, why not blame the alphabet, or numbers, or the equator. It's like buying into this idea that there's something called 'market forces' that human beings dare not interfere with.

I agree. It is the capitalists who have fetishized money, pretending that it can reproduce like a living thing, lying that it is somehow inherently powerful, and inducing the rest of us to do what they do: worship it.

They're wrong to do so, as you say. But the problem is that they have been extremely successful in doing so. As we see from the fact that, unlike numbers or the equator, money rules the world. I deliberately say "money," not "the possessors of money," because the decisions and actions of money's possessors are determined by the needs and interests of money itself.

 

[phildwyer]

German banks are more powerful than the Greek people or the German tax-payers

In what sense?

Obviously not in a physical sense.

In a metaphysical sense then. A magical sense.

 

[SpackleFrog]

c'mon, the article on why TUSC is our Syriza is almost as funny as the attempt by Left Unity to claim the same

I thought you were mocking the Greek section?

Which article do you mean? I don't think there's anything wrong with saying TUSC is capable of paving the way to something like Syriza in the future - Syriza started as a coalition of small left groups getting tiny shares of the vote. I've not seen anything that trys to suggest TUSC as it currently exists is going to have any kind of imminent breakthrough, even on a small scale.

 

[camouflage]

In what sense?

Obviously not in a physical sense.

In a metaphysical sense then. A magical sense.

a clue perhaps...

eta: Evening Standard a couple days ago.

 

[belboid]

clue perhaps...

christ, stop indulging the tosser and maybe the thread can get back on track

 

[phildwyer]

a clue perhaps...

Is that from today's Guardian? I can't tell from the picture. If so, it confirms that even liberal capitalists are increasingly aware of the surreal nature of today's "economy." In fact they're probably better aware of it than orthodox socialists.

 

[Idris2002]

I see they're now screaming and roaring about some alleged Syriza connection with that wrong'un eurasianist Dugin. Anyone got the real facts there?