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Greek elections

SpackleFrog said:
The closest I can get to the reasoning is that using racism as an excuse for tackling austerity and poverty instead of focusing on calling people racist is the very definition of opportunism.
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For someone who clearly thinks of himself as a writer of some elegance he don't half write some sloppy shit.
 
SpackleFrog said:
That's not what I'm suggesting.



Would they? And how credible would it be?

I'm not trying to argue they've crossed a line or broken some sort of sacred principle here, just wondering why it's absolutely neccessary for them to have a partner. No one else can form a government. What's to stop them arguing that the best reflection of the democratic will would be a minority govt, and seek cross party support on a bill by bill basis as they're clearly doing anyway?
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they couldnt just ignore the rule, they wouldnt be asked to form a government if they did so, and new elections would have to be called (after a bit of faffing)
 
belboid said:
that you actually have to oppose racism to end racism, just relating to the material causes is not enough. It's not really a very good definition of opportunism tho
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There's much more in that - that 1) this one part of opposing racism, by attempting to address the material causes (remember, he's talking as a marxist here) is pointless - either entirely, or in the here and now of a non-total revolutionary situation (let's see him argue that one as regards racial discrimination laws in the here and now then) or b) that what's motivating others to try and address material issues here and now is something sneaky and underhand (yet his and people like hims obsession with race/racism and support for dealing with elements of what drives it here and now is fine, it's what others should be doing in fact - an exemplar for the rest of us). It's very much a case of them being wrong to do what he would do because it's them doing it rather than him. It's really just inward looking lefty sectarian bollocks left over from his younger wilder days isn't it?
 
SpackleFrog said:
That's not what I'm suggesting.



Would they? And how credible would it be?

I'm not trying to argue they've crossed a line or broken some sort of sacred principle here, just wondering why it's absolutely neccessary for them to have a partner. No one else can form a government. What's to stop them arguing that the best reflection of the democratic will would be a minority govt, and seek cross party support on a bill by bill basis as they're clearly doing anyway?
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I hear what you are saying but if they had disregarded constitution (and even been able to do so?) they'd spend thier entire incumbency dogged by people calling them undemocratic thives- its not a good start to do that surely?
 
butchersapron said:
There's much more in that - that 1) this one part of opposing racism, by attempting to address the material causes (remember, he's talking as a marxist here) is pointless - either entirely, or in the here and now of a non-total revolutionary situation (let's see him argue that one as regards racial discrimination laws in the here and now then) or b) that what's motivating others to try and address material issues here and now is something sneaky and underhand (yet his and people like hims obsession with race/racism and support for dealing with elements of what drives it here and now is fine, it's what others should be doing in fact - an exemplar for the rest of us). It's very much a case of them being wrong to do what he would do because it's them doing it rather than him. It's really just inward looking lefty sectarian bollocks left over from his younger wilder days isn't it?
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A) is wrong - its not pointless, just insufficient. And, as such, will break down somewhere along the line, if the issue of racism isn't explicitly dealt with as well. It's like trying to unite Ireland by only mentioning bread and butter issues, and never ever mentioning the border. Wont work.

Where he is wrong is in calling it opportunism - unless he (Seymour) means that he doesn't believe Tsipras actually holds to such a crude belief as that Seymour assigns him, and is only saying he does because it will get him into office.
 
belboid said:
A) is wrong - its not pointless, just insufficient. And, as such, will break down somewhere along the line, if the issue of racism isn't explicitly dealt with as well. It's like trying to unite Ireland by only mentioning bread and butter issues, and never ever mentioning the border. Wont work.

Where he is wrong is in calling it opportunism - unless he (Seymour) means that he doesn't believe Tsipras actually holds to such a crude belief as that Seymour assigns him, and is only saying he does because it will get him into office.
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Unless he can find Syriza saying that racism will be wiped out entirely solely by addressing material issues (and he will not, not in a a party whose membership and leaders come from the traditions that they do) then he's just inventing a nice easy position to critique (i.e dismiss in a crude way). That's what he has done here - and it reeks of his SWP training when he pointed this sort of stuff outwards for them.
 
butchersapron said:
Unless he can find Syriza saying that racism will be wiped out entirely solely by addressing material issues (and he will not, not in a a party whose membership and leaders come from the traditions that they do) then he's just inventing a nice easy position to critique (i.e dismiss in a crude way). That's what he has done here - and it reeks of his SWP training when he pointed this sort of stuff outwards for them.
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what it says? Or what it does?

I don't know how crude his analysis is or isn't, but working with ANEL will put a block on delivering on proposals to deal with anti-Turkish racism, at the very least. Unless Paul Mason is right, and they're simply allying with different groups on different issues.
 
BBC London News just gave news headlines at close and said that Greece now had an uncertain future.

upload_2015-1-26_18-57-28.png

:facepalm:
 
brogdale said:
BBC London News just gave news headlines at close and said that Greece now had an uncertain future.

View attachment 66899

:facepalm:
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ITV coverage was more upbeat. Although it did make a big thing about how ATHIEST leader swore on his conscience rather than the bible.

But it did a pan along loads of shut businesses and said 'this is the result of a five year greek depression, which people have seen enough of'
 
...I'm sure it won't be long before all the same old "Greece was in dire straights in the first place cos all the lazy public servants wanted money for nothing" arguments are trotted out against Syriza.
 
chilango said:
...I'm sure it won't be long before all the same old "Greece was in dire straights in the first place cos all the lazy public servants wanted money for nothing" arguments are trotted out against Syriza.
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You haven't already heard this?
 
Isn't Germany going through the same economic punishment as the UK - zero hours contracts, wage stagnation, high youth unemployment and so forth? In other words, the much vaunted German success story has the same shaky foundations as the supposed upturn in the UK...hence the austerity meme maintaining stronger traction.
 
DotCommunist said:
ITV coverage was more upbeat. Although it did make a big thing about how ATHIEST leader swore on his conscience rather than the bible.

But it did a pan along loads of shut businesses and said 'this is the result of a five year greek depression, which people have seen enough of'
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Yeah, but is wasn't even the 'beat' that annoyed me, merely the concept that 'we' could highlight the risk of the leftists having political power on the basis of uncertainty. Like the BBC know exactly what befalls our great nation.:facepalm:
 
brogdale said:
Yeah, but is wasn't even the 'beat' that annoyed me, merely the concept that 'we' could highlight the risk of the leftists having political power on the basis of uncertainty. Like the BBC know exactly what befalls our great nation.:facepalm:
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How long has it been since a left-of-social-democrat party got in? In western europe? I said this to bro earlier, we've had near 40 years of 'monetarism' and so on, what we call pragmatic neoliberalism today. The bubble beeb and others just can't contemplate an alternative. Because we have always been at war with eurasia etc etc
 
phildwyer said:
Makes one quite nostalgic to read all the Red Scare editorials in this morning's press, haven't seen much of that since '89.

I get the feeling they've lost the knack of it. Do they even believe it any more?
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It does seem like that, doesn't it. It's like their heart just isn't in it anymore.
 
What do you mean, as in not in a coalition?

May well be wrong but I think yes.

Edit, just checked, I was wrong, it was in coalition. My mistake.
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
You and they are forgetting AKEL in Cyprus.

However we've yet to see how left wing Syriza will be able to be in practice...
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hmm,AKELwere in an alliance with the Cypriot equivalent of PASOK, so not quite the same.

There were them trots in Sri Lanka as well in the late sixties
 
Anyone have any details of Greece's writing off 50% of Germany's debt to the country in 1953 and rescheduling the rest?
 
belboid said:
hmm,AKELwere in an alliance with the Cypriot equivalent of PASOK, so not quite the same.

There were them trots in Sri Lanka as well in the late sixties
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True, but then I was a little harsh to dismiss quiquaquo's Partito Comunista Sammarinese as mere coalition partners, because Syriza are just that.

Spanky Longhorn's point seems to be the most salient, though.
 
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