Greek elections

[agricola]

You’re absolutely right. No one knows what will happen if Greece leave the Euro and an election is called - as would be likely in such an event.

There is a real prospect of Golden Dawn gaining ground or The Generals stepping in.

There is far more chance of GD getting in if Tspiras signs up to some version of this horror, and then his government falls, than if Grexit happens.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

If I were Tsipras right about now I'd overturn the table, maybe punch a couple of fuckers and repudiate all the debt.

If I could like this ten times over I would. I'd fucking love to twat a few technocrats.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I realise what the enormity is.

Do you really?

In real terms, on the streets, this means dead people.

 

[gawkrodger]

Thanks mate, your reading recommendations have been dead on so far.

Whilst Empire is definitely worth a read (though has sections with huge flaws) I'd recommend Marx against Marx and Time for revolution (the first half) if you can stomach the often near-impenetrable prose

 

[agricola]

Do you really?

In real terms, on the streets, this means dead people.

Well you wouldnt want to be one of the creditors representatives who gets to be back in Athens if this passes, would you?

 

[J Ed]

Do you really?

In real terms, on the streets, this means dead people.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/greek-austerity-sparks-sharp-rise-in-suicides.html

The harsh austerity measures imposed on the Greek public since the depths of country's financial crisis have led to a "significant, sharp, and sustained increase" in suicides, a study published in the British Medical Journal has found.
The cutbacks, launched in June 2011, saw the total number of suicides rise by over 35 percent—equivalent to an extra 11.2 suicides every month—and remained at that level into 2012, according to a study published this week by the University of Pennsylvania, Edinburgh University and Greek health authorities.

 

[brogdale]

Oh dear...
http://www.ekathimerini.com/199400/article/ekathimerini/news/tsipras-set-to-expel-syriza-rebels

 

[happie chappie]

Do you really?

In real terms, on the streets, this means dead people.

What - you think the alternative (which I'm not actually sure is) will lead to the Land of Milk and Honey.

We agree that there will be almost unbearable pain. There is no good outcome. We simply disagree what will be worse.

 

[hipipol]

thats gone well eh?

 

[MochaSoul]

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/greek-austerity-sparks-sharp-rise-in-suicides.html

Yup. and...

Reports have surfaced of patients being turned away from hospital because there was no meter to measure their high blood pressure, while others have had to do without painkillers during medical procedures. One patient was even asked to bring their own sheets to hospital.

A trainee surgeon at KAT, a respected state hospital in Athens, said the situation was at “breaking point”.

“There is no money to repair medical equipment, no money for ambulances to use for petrol, no money to hire nurses and no money to buy modern surgical supplies,” he told the Times.

The news comes as the Greek finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, warned the country would run out of money in a matter of weeks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-or-sheets-as-budget-cuts-bite-10271819.html

 

[frogwoman]

You’re absolutely right. No one knows what will happen if Greece leave the Euro and an election is called - as would be likely in such an event.

There is a real prospect of Golden Dawn gaining ground or The Generals stepping in.

I dont just mean golden dawn. The balkans has been a tinderbox for a while.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What - you think the alternative (which I'm not actually sure is) will lead to the Land of Milk and Honey.

We agree that there will be almost unbearable pain. There is no good outcome. We simply disagree what will be worse.

No, we disagree more fundamentally than that. I think that the Greeks must oppose this because I think that tyranny must be opposed. WE must oppose this because we must be internationalist or we are nothing.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

What - you think the alternative (which I'm not actually sure is) will lead to the Land of Milk and Honey.

We agree that there will be almost unbearable pain. There is no good outcome. We simply disagree what will be worse.

Which option do you think will result in Greece recovering quickest?

 

[J Ed]

Yup. and...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-or-sheets-as-budget-cuts-bite-10271819.html

Incredible, these really are the conditions which you would impose on a country with which you were at war.

 

[redsquirrel]

Which option do you think will result in Greece recovering quickest?

His(?) repeated attempts to reduce this to a binary "choice", out of the EU or austerity and stay in, is the same vile charade being acted out by the EU, IMF and co. It shows precisely why the prick is part of that set of vermin.

As LBJ says this goes far, far wider than that.

 

[newbie]

You’re absolutely right. No one knows what will happen if Greece leave the Euro and an election is called - as would be likely in such an event.

There is a real prospect of Golden Dawn gaining ground or The Generals stepping in.

If there is going to be a military takeover and martial law + technocrats- and it's a possibility that can't be discounted- it seems plausible it'll happen to prevent a move by the government to leave the euro.

 

[happie chappie]

Which option do you think will result in Greece recovering quickest?

Sorry - I just can't keep repeating myself. It's probably best for you to look back at the thread for my reasons for remaining in the Euro.

Anyway, you were the person who suggested that leaving the Euro would lead to a few months of disruption and things would then shortly get back to normal!

 

[agricola]

No, we disagree more fundamentally than that. I think that the Greeks must oppose this because I think that tyranny must be opposed. WE must oppose this because we must be internationalist or we are nothing.

Bild are apparently reporting (remarks at 22:20) that the IMF is openly calling for regime change, so that creditors can get their money back. Is there any reason why anyone shouldnt oppose this?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which option do you think will result in Greece recovering quickest?

It's more than that. How, exactly, can the EU proposal ever lead to recovery? And what would that recovery look like if it came? IE everything privatised, capital with free reign. Don't get old or sick in the 'new' Greece.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry - I just can't keep repeating myself. It's probably best for you to look back at the thread for my reasons for remaining in the Euro.

Anyway, you were the person who suggested that leaving the Euro would lead to a few months of disruption and things would then shortly get back to normal!

And your evidence for the contrary?

Iceland is lucky as it was never in the euro, but there were all kinds of threats, including the British disgracefully threatening to use anti-terrorism laws against them. And guess what?

 

[happie chappie]

Don't let him(?) define that "choice", his repeated attempts to reduce this to a binary choice, out of the EU or austerity and stay in, is the same vile charade being acted out by the EU, IMF and co and shows precisely why the prick is part of that set of vermin.

As LBJ says this goes far, far wider than that.

What are to ACTUALLY propose to do tomorrow morning if the ECB withdraws further funding?

Not just say fuck off, call me a prick or anything else.

What is going to happen tomorrow if the banks go bust, and what will be the consequences?

 

[MochaSoul]

Incredible, these really are the conditions which you would impose on a country with which you were at war.

Contrary to most people's thinking I do think the Greek people are already at war with the EU et al. It's just not one characterised by "bang bang" or "kaboom" sounds or images of profuse bleeding in public areas.

 

[Lurdan]

The Press Project has done some digging on the Luxembourg "Institution for Growth" to which the 4-page eurogroup paper demands that €50bn of Greek state property must be transferred. Guess what. This Luxembourg "institution" is wholly owned subsidiary of German KfW and the chairman of its board is a certain Wolfgang Schäuble.

Full marks for chutzpah.

 

[J Ed]

Full marks for chutzpah.

WTF

 

[happie chappie]

And your evidence for the contrary?

Iceland is lucky as it was never in the euro, but there were all kinds of threats, including the British disgracefully threatening to use anti-terrorism laws against them. And guess what?

My evidence for the contrary is that a return to the Drachma falls at the very first hurdle - there aren't any Drachmas and it could take a monumental effort over a year just print and distribute them.

As I suggested in a previous post only if pretty much every country in the developed world agrees to print them as quickly would Greece a chance of pulling it off.

Although what happens in the meantime to the Greek economy Lord only knows.

 

[frogwoman]

They're digging their own graves with this.

I think there's a real possibility there will be a european war in my lifetime.

 

[agricola]

What are to ACTUALLY propose to do tomorrow morning if the ECB withdraws further funding?

Not just say fuck off, call me a prick or anything else.

What is going to happen tomorrow if the banks go bust, and what will be the consequences?

It will be absolutely awful, Grexit will inevitably follow and the next year will be a disaster for many people in Greece and elsewhere as the economy adjusts.

The point is though that - as horrible as that would be - its less bad than having a technocratic government imposed from afar (edit: and anyone who thinks it would only be until the elections wants their head examining), of having the country looted, and having the solution to the crisis postponed to a later date when it will be in a much worse position to get out of it.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

As I suggested in a previous post only if pretty much every country in the developed world agrees to print them as quickly would Greece a chance of pulling it off.

Do they not have banks cards in Greece or something?

 

[happie chappie]

It will be absolutely awful, Grexit will inevitably follow and the next year will be a disaster for many people in Greece and elsewhere as the economy adjusts.

The point is though that - as horrible as that would be - its less bad than having a technocratic government imposed from afar, of having the country looted, and having the solution to the crisis postponed to a later date when it will be in a much worse position to get out of it.

It won't just be horrible. Horrible can be coped with.

Outside the Euro there will be the real possibility of a rapid and complete breakdown of civil society.

 

[happie chappie]

Do they not have banks cards in Greece or something?

Of course they've got bank cards - just no money to put in the cash machines.