Greek elections

[frogwoman]

Well the head of IMF doesnt even pay hers

 

[brogdale]

Has Tsipras started replacing the rebel Syriza ministers yet?

 

[MochaSoul]

Has Tsipras started replacing the rebel Syriza ministers yet?

I heard about that but I don't think he'll be able to go through with it before Syriza gets split out of power.

ETA: I need to rephrase that into a wish actually. It's too hard to keep faith these days.

 

[J Ed]

From Stathis Kouvelakis on FB

Avalanche of statements by the most rightist figures of government and of Syriza (economy minister Stathakis, inner revenue deputy minister Mardas, MEP Papadimoulis) asking openly for a reshuffling of the government and the expulsion of Zoe Kostantopoulou, Panagiotis Lafazanis and of Syriza's left wing.
Mardas, a former Pasok expert, very close to the "modernizer" former PM Costas Simitis, made ironic comments about Kostantopoulou and Lafazanis being "lost in space" and attacking them for being inspired by Guevara and Rosa Luxemburg (obviously a supreme insult for him).
In its editorial today, Avghi, Syriza's daily paper controlled by the rightist wing of the party, goes even further asking for snap elections and a "recomposition of the governmental majority".
Meanwhile, Stavros Theodorakis, the leader of Potami, EU's and big business Trojan horse, behaves like a minister-in-waiting, while the leaders of New Democracy and Pasok as constituent parts of a new "pro-agreement" majority.
The 251 votes in Parliament in favour of the proposed agreement can be seen as the accelerator for major political realignments. Let's also remind that in the vote the government lost control of its own majority, with 17 Syriza MPs not voting the proposal, in various ways and 15 more issuing a statement expressing their political solidarity with those rejecting and agreement and warning that they would not vote the forthcoming Memorandum.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well the head of IMF doesnt even pay hers

Nope. A friend of mine used to work in Brussels. Was paid ok, but subject to Belgian tax. Her superiors in various commissioner roles earned a very tidy sum and paid zero tax. There was quite a class divide between those who paid tax and those who didn't. Basically those who didn't considered themselves to be a class above. Step forward Neil Kinnock, you total cunt.

 

[J Ed]

Heaven forfend a member of a socialist government behave like a socialist...

 

[frogwoman]

Seems they wont be happy until greece becomes a failed state

 

[MochaSoul]

Seems they wont be happy until greece becomes a failed state

Failed states are boons for corruption.

 

[happie chappie]

For someone who's supposedly not in favour of austerity why do you continue to excuse it at every turn. Even a EU official has said that this proposal amounts to "mental waterboarding" of Greece yet pricks like you continue to argue that there's no alternative. You and mates are no different to the Troika, in fact your just the other cheek of the same arse.

I’ve said, for the reasons I have stated ad nauseum in this thread, I believe Greece is better off in the Euro than outside it.

As an aside, I think the majority of Greek people think so too.

I base my views on what I think the likely economic consequences of leaving the Euro and reverting to the Drachma.

You obviously don’t agree. That’s fine.

You state your view of what the alternatives are. Then we can debate them.

Tomorrow morning the ECB will decide whether or not to continue emergency funding for the Greek banks. They could refuse.

If you think that austerity is bad, just wait to see what happens when Greek banks go bust.

The country won’t need financial assistance. It will need humanitarian aid.

Anyway throwing insults around hardly adds to the sum of human knowledge.

But of you are going to insult me then at least come up with something original.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I’ve said, for the reasons I have stated ad nauseum in this thread, I believe Greece is better off in the Euro than outside it.

How?

Explain to me how Greece is better off with its creditors having seized all of its public assets and taken them off to a tax haven.

I'm loathe to use analogies with personal situations, but how is this not the bailiffs ransacking your house and taking your fridge and cooker and ripping out your hot water tap?

 

[brogdale]

Twatter is alive with the #thisisacoup thing. Seems a tad naive really; it kind of presupposes that elected politicians hold power over capital. Have these people not read Negri?

 

[happie chappie]

How?

We're in acute danger of going round in circles.

I've already listed the problems with reverting to the Drachma than once.

I'm not going to repeat them yet again.

 

[frogwoman]

There's talk of it needing humanitarian aid soon anyway.

 

[J Ed]

Twatter is alive with the #thisisacoup thing. Seems a tad naive really; it kind of presupposes that elected politicians hold power over capital. Have these people not read Negri?

I have read a bit about what other people have written about Negri, but nothing by him, do you have any recommendations?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We're in acute danger of going round in circles.

I've already listed the problems more with reverting to the Drachma than once.

I'm not going to repeat them yet again.

You don't know what the problems of reverting to the drachma will be. Nobody does.

Iceland was warned of catastrophe if it refused to underwrite its banks.

 

[redsquirrel]

I’ve said, for the reasons I have stated ad nauseum in this thread, I believe Greece is better off in the Euro than outside it.
<snip>

If you think that austerity is bad, just wait to see what happens when Greek banks go bust.

Making my point exactly, keep defending austerity.

Good thread to show who's side liberal pricks will end up on when the chips come down.

 

[brogdale]

I have read a bit about what other people have written about Negri, but nothing by him, do you have any recommendations?

Empire

 

[J Ed]

There's talk of it needing humanitarian aid soon anyway.

The impositions, and the consequences of the impositions, and now the rhetoric... you could be forgiven for thinking that Greece had launched an aggressive war and the country was now facing a punitive peace treaty as a result.

 

[frogwoman]

They should be careful what they wish for.

 

[happie chappie]

Making my point exactly, keep defending austerity.

If you can say I'm supporting austerity.

Then I can say you're advocating economic, political and social chaos the like of which hasn't been seen in Europe since 1945.

 

[redsquirrel]

Writing off Greece's debt would do that would it?

Again liberal bullshit, accepting as the only possibilities the demands of capital.

 

[J Ed]

Empire

Thanks mate, your reading recommendations have been dead on so far.

 

[agricola]

We're in acute danger of going round in circles.

I've already listed the problems with reverting to the Drachma than once.

I'm not going to repeat them yet again.

Noone is pretending that there wouldnt be problems with reverting to the drachma, or that it would be plain sailing if they did that.

The point is whether or not that would be better than handing over fifty billion euro worth of assets, removing any national control over the privatization of what remains, signing up to another bailout that doesnt solve any of the underlying problems and destroying the current (and any future national) government(edit)... and the rest.

 

[happie chappie]

They should be careful what they wish for.

You’re absolutely right. No one knows what will happen if Greece leave the Euro and an election is called - as would be likely in such an event.

There is a real prospect of Golden Dawn gaining ground or The Generals stepping in.

 

[J Ed]

Noone is pretending that there wouldnt be problems with reverting to the drachma, or that it would be plain sailing if they did that.

The point is whether or not that would be better than handing over fifty billion euro worth of assets, removing any national control over the privatization of what remains, signing up to another bailout that doesnt solve any of the underlying problems and destroying the current (and any future national) government.

The fucking IMF and the US Treasury are arguing that a Western European government full of people who are openly Marxists is being treated too harshly and that the debt they are being expected to pay is totally unfeasible. I am absolutely astonished that in the face of those facts that anyone can even think about either the Greek government being unreasonable or the EU being reasonable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you can say I'm supporting austerity.

Then I can say you're advocating economic, political and social chaos the like of which hasn't been seen in Europe since 1945.

Hang on. Who is causing this? Whole sovereign nations are told to hand over their national assets.

Think about the UK here. You must hand over the NHS to the EU and it must be privatised. The whole thing. And despite the fact that the British people have voted no, it must happen anyway.

Think about the enormity of what is being demanded here.

 

[Belushi]

If I were Tsipras right about now I'd overturn the table, maybe punch a couple of fuckers and repudiate all the debt.

 

[brogdale]

Though I'd have to say that what we're seeing with Greece does perhaps undermine some of Negri/Harry's 'pyramid' of "monarchy, oligarchy & democracy" concept. It's almost like there's been an unwritten, latter-day Magna Carta in which the financialised capitalist, corporate robber barons of Negri's 'oligarchy' have curbed and taken the powers of the supra-national 'monarchy'.

Hence the EcoFin/ECB/IMF looting Greece on behalf of the banks.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

You’re absolutely right. No one knows what will happen if Greece leave the Euro and an election is called - as would be likely in such an event.

There is a real prospect of Golden Dawn gaining ground or The Generals stepping in.

I don't know how likely a rise in GD popularity is under any circumstances, but if that is a possibility, do you think another 5 years like the previous 5 will prevent it? How long can a deflationary depression, imposed upon Greece by outside forces, go before the pressure cooker bursts?

 

[happie chappie]

Hang on. Who is causing this? Whole sovereign nations are told to hand over their national assets.

Think about the UK here. You must hand over the NHS to the EU and it must be privatised. The whole thing. And despite the fact that the British people have voted no, it must happen anyway.

Think about the enormity of what is being demanded here.

I realise what the enormity is. I happen to think the alternative is worse.

Some of the options suggested are simply unworkable.

I've not seen a coherent alternative put forward on this thread, given where we are now, to remaining in the Euro.