Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I think it's just theatre and that the only acceptable outcome for the Troika is regime change.
Greek elections
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Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
Deal as proposed wasn't good enough.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
1. They don't believe Syriza will actually implement the reforms (which should be true) so they want Syriza out of the pic; and
2. Some of them actually want Greece out of the eurozone (Schauble for instance)
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
You won’t be surprised to hear, given my previous posts on this thread, I don’t agree that Syriza has sold out. They had no choice.
If it’s guilty of anything it was offering the Greek people an end to austerity. Something that was never remotely achievable.
The more extravagant the promises the bigger the disappointment when they’re broken.
This was compounded by some tactical errors – for example calling a referendum and presenting the result as some kind of mandate in the hope (or worse, expectation) that Merkel et al would be so scared that they would cave in to Syriza’s demands.
Once the Troika knew (or at least made Syriza believe) Grexit was something they were prepared for and were ready to countenance the game was up.
The EU has faced down leaders such as Putin – did anyone really think they would be bullied by a group of amateurs, no matter how well-intentioned?
I genuinely believe that more than a few EU Finance Ministers now actively want Greece to leave and some want Spain, Portugal and even Italy to follow.
The only hope Syriza had was to drive a meaningful wedge between the EU Finance Ministers.
It that it has been successful – between those who are willing to take a hard line and those who want to take an even harder one.
If it’s guilty of anything it was offering the Greek people an end to austerity. Something that was never remotely achievable.
The more extravagant the promises the bigger the disappointment when they’re broken.
This was compounded by some tactical errors – for example calling a referendum and presenting the result as some kind of mandate in the hope (or worse, expectation) that Merkel et al would be so scared that they would cave in to Syriza’s demands.
Once the Troika knew (or at least made Syriza believe) Grexit was something they were prepared for and were ready to countenance the game was up.
The EU has faced down leaders such as Putin – did anyone really think they would be bullied by a group of amateurs, no matter how well-intentioned?
I genuinely believe that more than a few EU Finance Ministers now actively want Greece to leave and some want Spain, Portugal and even Italy to follow.
The only hope Syriza had was to drive a meaningful wedge between the EU Finance Ministers.
It that it has been successful – between those who are willing to take a hard line and those who want to take an even harder one.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Who are these amateurs you're speaking of? And when exactly did the EU face down Putin?
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
The Syriza negotiating team which has been thoroughly outmanoeuvred by the EU Finance Ministers from the outset. They've little or no experience of any meaningful negotiations about anything, let alone on the international stage. Their bluff has been well and truly called and they're probably going to end up with a worse deal than when they started.
[eta - and, as an added bonus the Troika has split Syriza into the bargain]
EU sanctions against Russia. Doing as much as they reasonably can while trying to keep a coalition of 27 countries and NATO together (referring back to your point about the EU being a fundamentally flawed institution) without actually starting a Third World War.
[eta - and, as an added bonus the Troika has split Syriza into the bargain]
EU sanctions against Russia. Doing as much as they reasonably can while trying to keep a coalition of 27 countries and NATO together (referring back to your point about the EU being a fundamentally flawed institution) without actually starting a Third World War.
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gosub
~#
Agree with the Washington post piece either the drachma works and they won't want in or they're a basket case the EU won't consider eligable, its not about that, its about making Greece sloping the debt once out as messy as possible, think what the vulture funds have doing with Argentina in the last year.
Note also the EUrozone statement still states nominal haircuts on the debt cannot be undertaken. - Cunts, they had three years to move on that and didn't (though they can write Euroexit on a beermat in a week), even buried the reports that said it was necessary, and yet they say it is Greece, which halved its civil service that's broken trust.
Tspiras would be lying if he says he has achieved anything more than a slightly longer chain to an even bigger millstone. he'd be better off resigning.
The new German colonies, this will not end well.
I'm wondering how much part the force of old oppositionist habit played.
"Expose the capitalists for the oppressors they are!"
PS: "transitional demands"
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
It would be handy for Tsipras to have an offer up his sleeve for a few hundred billion roubles in exchange for a military base on Crete. Presumably he wouldn't pull that out until the last possible minute.
spartacus mills
let's wee on each other
Not sure about that. Did Greece have the physical possibility of returning to the drachma? It seems like they did not according to Varoufakis etc. There wasn't really a bluff. They had no alternatives. And as they dared to argue the toss - and are dirty left wing commies - they will be ground into the dirt.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
A five year exit is ludicrous, but just if this weekend's antics demonstrate anything its that leaving the Euro now, defaulting immediately and having their own currency is by far the least bad option open to them.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's hard not to reach this conclusion. Hand over 50bn euro of national assets to an outside 'custodian'? What the fucking fuck is that?
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
from bbc live update 20:55
V senior French official briefing the meeting btw finance ministers last night was "extremely violent". Schauble was "reigned in" by Merkel.
Reuters reports that the atmosphere between finance ministers during talks on Saturday became "tough, even violent" at times.
Germany's Wolfgang Schaeuble seemed to be at the centre of much of the heated debate. At one stage he reportedly snapped at ECB governor Mario Draghi, "I'm not stupid".
"It was crazy, a kindergarten," the source added.
....talk about the second time as farce....now we've got actual barmy German technocrats in wheelchairs trying to use brinkmanship to blow up the world...
V senior French official briefing the meeting btw finance ministers last night was "extremely violent". Schauble was "reigned in" by Merkel.
Reuters reports that the atmosphere between finance ministers during talks on Saturday became "tough, even violent" at times.
Germany's Wolfgang Schaeuble seemed to be at the centre of much of the heated debate. At one stage he reportedly snapped at ECB governor Mario Draghi, "I'm not stupid".
"It was crazy, a kindergarten," the source added.
....talk about the second time as farce....now we've got actual barmy German technocrats in wheelchairs trying to use brinkmanship to blow up the world...
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
For someone who's supposedly not in favour of austerity why do you continue to excuse it at every turn. Even a EU official has said that this proposal amounts to "mental waterboarding" of Greece yet pricks like you continue to argue that there's no alternative. You and mates are no different to the Troika, in fact your just the other cheek of the same arse.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
... who then sells them off. It is the language of a surrender document.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes it is. It is the language of imperialism.
Fuck them, get out and default. It's always seemed the most likely and best option, tbh. I understand the reasons the likes of Varoufakis didn't take this line, and I hope he's wrong about the consequences.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
What I don't understand is what are Tsipras and Tsakalotos still doing in there?
All weekend they've bowed lower than one could imagine possible. What do they think they could get out of selling their country in this way? I mean, what are they still doing there? I really fail to understand this.
All weekend they've bowed lower than one could imagine possible. What do they think they could get out of selling their country in this way? I mean, what are they still doing there? I really fail to understand this.
BandWagon
Life's a bitch and then you die...
This. Fuck them.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
What I hope they are still doing there is attempting to convert the insults and the humiliations heaped upon them into public consent for a Greek exit from the Eurozone.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
How many people has Antarsya been able to rouse in protest so far? Does anyone know?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Fuck me, I hadn't even thought about the tax haven aspect. Of course... 
Irony upon irony upon irony. Who is it that hasn't been collecting their taxes here?
Irony upon irony upon irony. Who is it that hasn't been collecting their taxes here?
