Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
And it will change nothing. It will provide neither bread nor justice.
Greek elections
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And it will change nothing. It will provide neither bread nor justice.
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
That’s the key point – they got the best deal they probably could have whilst remaining in the Euro which, most people agree, is a better option than leaving.
I think that once Greece has shown it is complying with the Troika’s demands, they will start to loosen the stranglehold in small steps as a “reward” for the Greeks doing as they’re told.
I don’t agree with Weldon’s tweet in Post 2963 – why would Syriza push for a rejection of a package it had just negotiated? They could save themselves a lot of time and trouble just telling the Troika to fuck off there and then.
I think it’s more likely that Syriza to put the package to the Greek people in a referendum on a “best that can be achieved by negotiation” basis without a recommendation, but on the understanding that rejection could lead to a Grexit.
I think there would then be a majority in favour of acceptance.
At least Syriza would avoid the blame for the likely chaos that would have ensued if Greece left the single currency and emerge with a reasonable amount of credit from what is pretty much, for them and the Greek people, a no-win situation.
It isn't really about the deal. Either way - deal or leave the Euro - there would be pain. It is about who is in power in Greece.
Having a nice pristine ideology and leaving power to others has been a huge failure for the left in Europe in the last 50 years.
Did anyone expect Syriza to a) undo decades of economic mismanagement and b) defeat the EU/ECB/creditors inside six months?
Just because the EU nations/IMF/ECB/creditors have behaved like scum it isn't a reason to quit and go home, never to be elected again.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Spoken like a good Labour party member. you might as well vote for Liz Kendall.
'Power' is fucking useless if you give away what little you actually have
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Really?
I find that a strange judgement given the Blairs and Felipes of the 'left' in Europe over the last 50 years.
Where was the last truly reformist left govt in Europe? Just left-centre, even. Brandt in West Germany, perhaps, over 40 years ago.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
If the only "power" you've got is to impose austerity, make things more unequal, put people into poverty then what the fuck's the point of it?
If that's your power you can keep it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Stathis Kouvelakis, syriza CC member:
In Athens NOW: dramatic meeting of Syriza's parliamentary group.
Yanis Varoufakis, according to media reports, opposed the agreement.
According to Panagiotis Lafazanis, minister of Energy and leader of the Left Platform, the agreement is "incompatible with Syriza's programme" and "doesn't offer a positive perspective to the country".
It is expected that the ministers of the Left Platform will resign within the day.
Thanassis Petrakos, one of the three speakers of Syriza's parliamentary group and prominent member of the Left Platform, declared: "The "No" of the referendum was a radical and a class No. Some high-ranked comrades insist on the "there is no other way" logic. We should prepare exiting the eurozone and say that clearly to the people. The Left has a future when it opens its wings to the unknown, not to nothingness. Those who insist on the choice of staying in the euro whatever the cost might be know that it is a disaster. We need a prepared exit to open up a new path. The first steps are the public control of the banks and of the Greek central bank and a crackdow on oligarchy".
In Athens NOW: dramatic meeting of Syriza's parliamentary group.
Yanis Varoufakis, according to media reports, opposed the agreement.
According to Panagiotis Lafazanis, minister of Energy and leader of the Left Platform, the agreement is "incompatible with Syriza's programme" and "doesn't offer a positive perspective to the country".
It is expected that the ministers of the Left Platform will resign within the day.
Thanassis Petrakos, one of the three speakers of Syriza's parliamentary group and prominent member of the Left Platform, declared: "The "No" of the referendum was a radical and a class No. Some high-ranked comrades insist on the "there is no other way" logic. We should prepare exiting the eurozone and say that clearly to the people. The Left has a future when it opens its wings to the unknown, not to nothingness. Those who insist on the choice of staying in the euro whatever the cost might be know that it is a disaster. We need a prepared exit to open up a new path. The first steps are the public control of the banks and of the Greek central bank and a crackdow on oligarchy".
It took the Tories 36 years to do what they did yesterday in the budget. Maybe they should have packed up in 1979 and gone and wore t-shirts with Ayn Rand on them and had a big sulk 
Would you seriously prefer the right in power in Greece? Or an EU-appointed technocratic government? Would you like the banking system to collapse in Greece and more people start to go hungry? What did you expect of the outcome of all this?
If you don't like power you will leave it to other people/institutions who do. Sometimes that comes with all kind of contradictions and deals with wankers you would prefer never to see again...
eta: inside or outside of the euro.
Would you seriously prefer the right in power in Greece? Or an EU-appointed technocratic government? Would you like the banking system to collapse in Greece and more people start to go hungry? What did you expect of the outcome of all this?
If you don't like power you will leave it to other people/institutions who do. Sometimes that comes with all kind of contradictions and deals with wankers you would prefer never to see again...
eta: inside or outside of the euro.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
ffs - you don't seem to know what's been happening here and are trying to fit it into some fairytale of post-war social consensus democracy and multi-party competition. Update your maps. Come into the 21st century. Esp if you wish to talk of power.
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
Is there any news as to whether a proposed Grexit would be put to a referendum of the Greek people?
If it is - what do you think the result will be?
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Fedayn
Well-Known Member
What use is being in power if you ignore the referendum you ste up and then roll over like fucking tortoises..... SYRIZA sanctioned austerity is just as brutal as New Democracy sanctioned austerity.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Some people think it would need one, some don't - that's about it.
I don't know, the greek people were threatened last week and they responded by defiance - helping to produce a clear anti-austerity majority. We know prior to this most people wanted to stay in but if, as now seems clear, that they can see for themselves that their anti-austerity politics cannot happen inside but they can try outside then that firm support may be crumbling. It's hard to tell - esp as the referendum polls were so wrong. What that shows is movement. Nothing can be taken for granted when that's the order of the day.
gosub
~#
If only there was a third way, some shiny suit and toothy grin, telling people "things can only get better" and getting his mates to rent the people shiny new schools and hospitals for a 'reasonable' fee.
fuck that. If this deal gets completed, it will be clear who the liars were, who was acting in narrow national interest, and who was trying to make a bad lot viable. Stick with Tspiras, not drowning when there is a foot on your head is quite an achievement. Won't know til October how far that foot will come off the Greek's head, but they'll be debt repayments after that...
Butchy - I'm not being cheeky I don't quite understand you.
I don't think it's a fairytale I think the situation in Greece is a disaster. And i don't care about consensus.
But for the first time in the EU there is a left government and in the medium and long term I would like them to stay in power, whatever it takes.
I don't think it's a fairytale I think the situation in Greece is a disaster. And i don't care about consensus.
But for the first time in the EU there is a left government and in the medium and long term I would like them to stay in power, whatever it takes.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They're not in fucking power. We shall destroy your banks.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
If only there was a third way, some shiny suit and toothy grin, telling people "things can only get better" and getting his mates to rent the people shiny new schools and hospitals for a 'reasonable' fee.
fuck that. If this deal gets completed, it will be clear who the liars were, who was acting in narrow national interest, and who was trying to make a bad lot viable. Stick with Tspiras, not drowning when there is a foot on your head is quite an achievement. Won't know til October how far that foot will come off the Greek's head, but they'll be debt repayments after that...
Why do you say 'Sitck with Tsipras' as opposed 'Stick with SYRIZA' or 'Stick with the NO voting working class'? Tsipras has to all intents and purposes ratted on his voters and on the referendum.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
SYRIZA, under this deal, are in government but absolutely clearly not in, or wanting to be in, power.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Tsipras will have the backingh of POTAMI, ND and PASOK, will enough SYRIZA vote against to stop it? Some of the Tsipras fanboys and fangirls will be preparing some political somersaults over the weekend no doubt to justify his actions....
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Why are you asking this? If Syriza do what the Troika tell them, against the democratic will of the the Greek people, then what's the difference between them and an EU-appointed technocratic government?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
stronger negotiating hand. But the troika have just said 'fuck you pay me' thusly turning ovrt democratic procces
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
It will benefit GD. Massively.
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
If anyone in Syriza thought the referendum result would given them a stronger negotiating hand they were deluded.
The EU isn’t interested in democracy. It never was. There only interested if you vote the right way.
Otherwise they either ignore the result or get you to vote again and again until they get the answer they want.
Look at the Irish Lisbon Treaty referendum.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
The EU isn’t interested in democracy. It never was. There only interested if you vote the right way.
QUOTE]
You seem quite a bleak chappie to me...
You are right. They are not in 100pc control of the situation and a lot of power in Greece is outside of their control, outside of the country.
Has anyone been in a position when you have been forced to eat shit? Do you give up or do you smile nicely and wait until you can return the favour?
