Grand Theft Auto game creator RockStar hasn't paid corporation tax for 10 years

[D'wards]

I support Rockstar not paying tax.
Their games are fucking awesome and if it speeds up the next GTA release then all the better.

Same goes for Ubisoft. Giz us another Assassin's Creed now!

You see I love Rockstar, their games are fantastic and have so much depth. In terms of hours of play they represent superb value for money to their customers, shark cards notwithstanding.

However, their tax dodging sickens me, and I wish they'd just pay their fucking tax.
There is no excuse- I accept they spend a shitload on developing games but they make a horrendous amount of profit.

Tbh I haven't looked into it enough to understand how they can make billions in profit but the gov still pays them nearly £50m in tax rebate. Cant see the sense in it.

 

[stavros]

Regarding tax dodging in general (avoidance and evasion, personal and corporate), I do wonder why it doesn't create greater public outcry, given the sums involved. A lot of it is legal, but the loopholes could as I understand be closed if there were the political will. Yet my non-scientific study of the issue suggests that public opinion often adopts one or more of three dismissals:

• "We'd all do it if we could afford the accountants, because no one likes paying tax";
• "You're just jealous/anti-success";
• "We need the attract business to this country with 'competitive' rates".

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Regarding tax dodging in general (avoidance and evasion, personal and corporate), I do wonder why it doesn't create greater public outcry, given the sums involved. A lot of it is legal, but the loopholes could as I understand be closed if there were the political will. Yet my non-scientific study of the issue suggests that public opinion often adopts one or more of three dismissals:

• "We'd all do it if we could afford the accountants, because no one likes paying tax";
• "You're just jealous/anti-success";
• "We need the attract business to this country with 'competitive' rates".

Jimmy Carr did a great mea culpa on Room 101, basically saying that we would all do it if it is left up to us to choose, therefore it is up to the setters of taxes, the government to make it so there are no loopholes and daft schemes etc.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I support Rockstar not paying tax.
Their games are fucking awesome and if it speeds up the next GTA release then all the better.

Same goes for Ubisoft. Giz us another Assassin's Creed now!

You're not being serious, are you? Do you really think that the extra profit is being plunged back into development? It's going into the shareholders pocket. Rockstar don't need to dodge tax to develop games. They make obscene amounts off of GTA Online - hundreds of millions a year, from a 6 year old game - and spend exactly what it costs to develop the undeniably brilliant games they make. Not a penny more or less. They can afford to do this and still pay massive dividends to their shareholders. The tax dodging is greed, pure and simple, and doesn't benefit the customers in any way.

You can't not know this, surely?

 

[Supine]

They are a us company so presumably they pay tax on profits there. The UK will just be a non profit making service centre where programmers work.

(Not defending the setup)

 

[redsquirrel]

Yet my non-scientific study of the issue suggests that public opinion often adopts one or more of three dismissals:

• "We'd all do it if we could afford the accountants, because no one likes paying tax";
• "You're just jealous/anti-success";
• "We need the attract business to this country with 'competitive' rates".

Then why did Jimmy Carr have to apologise as outlined by Bahnhof Strasse ? Why do Amazon etc feel the need to emphasise their philanthropy and how they are really paying all the tax they should? Don't confuse the mutterings of the media with public opinion.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think most people who pay tax resent tax evaders/avoiders as why should those at the bottom be paying their fair share when those on greater incomes and huge companies think it doesn’t apply to them?
I think there’s more anger than envy.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Tax dodging is unequivocally unpopular, although I am often surprised at how much more emotionally charged the anger is towards people alleged or found to have done some fairly low level (and small sum) stuff like benefit fraud than it is towards high net worth types or big firms avoiding huge sums. I suppose it's more real to people or something, more conceivable.

Anyway, argument that everybody would avoid tax if they could is moot isn't it. Tbh have no issue with ordinary people avoiding tax where they can, but point is ordinary people can't in the way that the wealthy do and big business does. No scope through PAYE while the myriad ways that business and HNW people have to mitigate huge sums are intentional, there to oil the wheels of capital

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Niko says you should pay what you owe:

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Tax dodging is unequivocally unpopular, although I am often surprised at how much more emotionally charged the anger is towards people alleged or found to have done some fairly low level (and small sum) stuff like benefit fraud than it is towards high net worth types or big firms avoiding huge sums. I suppose it's more real to people or something, more conceivable.

Anyway, argument that everybody would avoid tax if they could is moot isn't it. Tbh have no issue with ordinary people avoiding tax where they can, but point is ordinary people can't in the way that the wealthy do and big business does. No scope through PAYE while the myriad ways that business and HNW people have to mitigate huge sums are intentional, there to oil the wheels of capital

Of course with regular PAYE you pay you dues and are done. What he was on about was you get paid a million for a job, you can pay 45% and keep the rest, or become a ltd company and buy some woodland and pay 10%, or whatever. You get confused with the detail, so are asked if you’d like £550k or £900k. You choose...

 

[Proper Tidy]

If course with regular PAYE you pay you dues and are done. What he was on about was you get paid a million for a job, you can pay 45% and keep the rest, or become a ltd company and buy some woodland and pay 10%, or whatever. You get confused with the detail, so are asked if you’d like £550k or £900k. You choose...

Yeah I got that. And loads of people do run stuff through limited companies to pay dividend tax instead of income tax etc, including many people who aren't exactly super wealthy (although what Carr was doing was a fair bit further up scale of too good to be true/this is clearly dodgy). But argument that most people would do that given the opportunity is still countered by most people not ever having the opportunity

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Fair enough.

 

[Ming]

This guys worth a listen.

 

[redsquirrel]

Why, what does he say? What are his arguments? Who is he?

 

[stavros]

Then why did Jimmy Carr have to apologise as outlined by Bahnhof Strasse ? Why do Amazon etc feel the need to emphasise their philanthropy and how they are really paying all the tax they should? Don't confuse the mutterings of the media with public opinion.

The need for Carr to apologise was self-imposed, perhaps mindful of his status as a public figure.

The companies cited are paying all the tax they should, i.e. that they have to. My impression was by no means comprehensive, and I'll gladly concede that it could lack in objectivity due to my preconceptions of the issue of tax dodging.

One other excuse which I seen mentioned is that they're legally obliged to maximise share holder returns. I've read, from a source I believe more learned than me in these matters, that there's nothing on the UK statute stating this.

 

[redsquirrel]

The need for Carr to apologise was self-imposed, perhaps mindful of his status as a public figure.

That is a contradiction, he only needed to care about his 'status as a public figure' if there was a general perception that he had behaved in an anti-social manner. If there was just public apathy with tax avoidance then there would have been no threat to his 'status'.

 

[stavros]

You're right in that there's a contradiction in the absolute sense of what I said.

I'm curious as to why Carr was jumped upon for his action, as were Take That, whereas assorted other celebrities who hide from HMRC in some ways are seemingly excused. Why can Lewis Hamilton and Simon Cowell, amongst others, carry on with apparent impunity?