Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]

[Corax]

Just because journos can be cunts doesn't mean the subjects of their stories aren't. It's not zero-sum, and taking the thread off on that tangent seems a bit odd tbh.

 

[Corax]

Oxford Uni rugby team dickheads get relegated and banned from competing
my bold
http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...rugby-club-banned-from-competing-8922464.html

And the current 'most recent' comment on that article?

Please note that the JCR President, Becky Howe - the one more likely to be in charge of us in the future - is the one expressing the sexist sentiments. It was a fairly bad taste joke, but it was a joke. The "culture" one should fear is one that fears jokes or, worse, punishes them.

Fuckinell.

ETA: The comments continue, and they're fucking horrific. Not only misogyny, but people who are presumably Oxbridge generally cultivating some sort of martyr complex - the poor oppressed dears.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I can appreciate that the driver probably gets a lot of abuse, and that's not right either, but it's a bit rich for the bus company to say that this type of behaviour isn't tolerated when there was clearly no intervention from the driver whilst it was going on. Now, it's possible that he stopped the bus and they all got turfed off - used to happen with students when I was studying if they fucked the drivers off - it's just not seen on film, but I would have expected the bus company to come out and say so if that were the case.

One driver vs how many drunken (possibly violent, if they were stirred) louts? Even if 'official policy', would you seriously expect a single man/woman to step in?

 

[Corax]

One driver vs how many drunken (possibly violent, if they were stirred) louts? Even if 'official policy', would you seriously expect a single man/woman to step in?

Have to agree. Not everyone would feel safe to front up a group of rowdy drunks and tell them where to get off (literally in this instance). Yeah, we all know what we'd like to do, but with the ever increasing media angle that anyone under 40 and not wearing suit is probably looking to stab you, I don't think it fair to condemn a bus driver for not tackling instances like this themself. Some people find simply walking past a rowdy group after dark a frightening experience even though that group may not be being at all hostile. They may well be very good at driving a bus and dealing with the vast majority of passengers, but having the confidence to stand up to a group of pissed-up twats would be out of the question.

Doesn't mean they should just ignore such vile behaviour, but there should be other options made available to the driver, and it's not fair (IMO) to blame them for not 'stepping in'.

 

[equationgirl]

One driver vs how many drunken (possibly violent, if they were stirred) louts? Even if 'official policy', would you seriously expect a single man/woman to step in?

I'd expect them to e.g. call the police, or stop the bus and put them off.

Like I said, they might have stepped in after filming stopped.

 

[Corax]

I'd expect them to e.g. call the police

Yep, I'd expect that.

I'd expect them to stop the bus and put them off.

I wouldn't expect that for the reasons upthread.

Like I said, they might have stepped in after filming stopped.

Depends what you mean by 'stepped in' - but certainly shouldn't have been simply forgotten and ignored.

 

[Corax]

One of the things I noticed in the video is that the thing they're getting most of their kicks from is bad puns. I love bad puns, so I can empathise with that. But they have to layer a load of ladmag bollocks on top of it as well.

I'd bet that the majority would be just as amused and entertained without the misogyny. But it becomes a self-perpetuating circle of expectation.

And that, I think, is where the influence of Nuts, Zoo, et all really comes in.

 

[Citizen66]

I think it's a weird mixture of the driver being damned either way. If s/he does nothing and continues the service s/he puts passengers at risk and they have a shit journey. Any other option including having to deal with it him/herself or parking the bus up whilst waiting for the old bill to sort it out puts him/herself at risk. I know there's a perspex screen on modern buses but It's not impenetrable.

Fwiw I'd cut the driver some slack. It wasn't them causing the shit and they find themselves in a predicament when tossers get on the bus. There's fuck all stopping passengers noting down BTP's number and contacting them themselves in these situations. I'm sure 999 will get the info put their way too.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I'd expect them to e.g. call the police, or stop the bus and put them off.

Like I said, they might have stepped in after filming stopped.

Call the police, maybe. Stop the bus and put them off? Would you, as a single driver, be comfortable putting ~10 rowdy, drunken blokes off a bus? I guess a lot of people would just do nothing for fear of inflaming a situation. How many people when they see anti-social behaviour on public transport just look away and hope it goes away?

Where I work (a college, as IT support staff) I'd be expected to challenge any instance of anti-social behaviour from students (from swearing up), but you know what? I don't. I'm not a bouncer, I'm not a security guard, I'm not exactly Bruce Lee and I don't get paid danger money. I don't see it as my job to get involved in any sort of situation which might end up in a fight. Obviously, if someone was in physical danger, I'd do something, but as an employee/member of the general public I have the right to avoid potentially dangerous situations (especially if well outnumbered).



A suggestion would be to have CCTV on buses (I think they already do, though) and prosecute offenders or have guards, trained to deal with such behaviour, on problem routes.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Can't imagine ever thinking it would be ok to inflict shit like that on others...even when I was a teenager (and I weren't a saint) I'd have thought that was so fucking wrong.

I think that's one of the most worrying things - that it seems to be perceived as culturally acceptable by these young men to say and do these horrifically sexist things. Yes, I don't think it would have happened so publicly 15 years ago when I was an undergrad, or at least with this apparent regularity Though there were definitely sexist ideas around.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I don't think there's any co-incidence that as women have gained more financial and social independence, then this sort of "lad"/rape culture has increased, along with objectification. There obviously needs to be some way of putting these women in their place

I don't know why these stories don't make more publicised news either - I think this is far more shocking than a couple of first years dressed as the Twin Towers on Halloween.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Pretty sickening all all - apart from young woman who can be heard proclaiming her disgust. If other passengers had been more vocal, perhaps they would have shut the fuck up.

I probably (hopefully) would have backed someone up who had the guts to speak out first. But as a small woman, I have to say there is no way I would have been the first to speak up again an essentially misogynistic* song. Which shows that it's obviously very effective at intimidating women.

*I know this word gets bandied about a lot, but I think this song does actually qualify

 

[co-op]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I don't think there's any co-incidence that as women have gained more financial and social independence, then this sort of "lad"/rape culture has increased, along with objectification. There obviously needs to be some way of putting these women in their place

I don't know why these stories don't make more publicised news either - I think this is far more shocking than a couple of first years dressed as the Twin Towers on Halloween.

There's also the whole class angle here. I know these stories get some publicity but there's never a general attack on the class who are doing it; the Public-school "guys" and "chaps" who are our future rulers. Instead the story is shunted sideways into the ghetto of feminism (by which I mean it's contained within a media-feminist narrative about "sexism", never allowed to spill out into questions about wider power imbalances that make this kind of behaviour inevitable).

Imagine the shrill shrieks from the press if these were working class lads or - my god - young muslim lads. We'd have the Blunketts and the Straws and all the other wankers lining up to make it a Real Big Issue.

 

[DotCommunist]

the word culture would be mentioned. 'There is a culture of acceptable rapeyness amongst this community'

community is the go-to media codeword for race or class these days as well.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

There's also the whole class angle here. I know these stories get some publicity but there's never a general attack on the class who are doing it; the Public-school "guys" and "chaps" who are our future rulers. Instead the story is shunted sideways into the ghetto of feminism (by which I mean it's contained within a media-feminist narrative about "sexism", never allowed to spill out into questions about wider power imbalances that make this kind of behaviour inevitable).

Yes, agreed

However...

Imagine the shrill shrieks from the press if these were working class lads or - my god - young muslim lads. We'd have the Blunketts and the Straws and all the other wankers lining up to make it a Real Big Issue.

I'm not sure, in this instance, that the class thing would have really made it more reportable. Even though I think this sort of stuff is getting worse and more publicly acceptable, women have been harassed by men of all classes for fucking decades, and I'm not sure if it would be more newsworthy if it had been working class lads. In fact, I suspect it's more newsworthy with it being about (presumably) middle class students, because of cultural ideas that such young men are upstanding members of the community, and shouldn't be saying such things (whereas there are loads of stereotypes about working class men being sexist). Police involvement, however, is probably a different story.

I agree that it probably would have been more newsworthy if it had been a group of apparent muslim lads

 

[likesfish]

I knew some truly obnoxious songs but even with my pea sized brain could figure out that some songs you didnt sing around people who might be offened

If you must be an offensive dick you do it in private not on a fucking bus

 

[co-op]

In fact, I suspect it's more newsworthy with it being about (presumably) middle class students, because of cultural ideas that such young men are upstanding members of the community, and shouldn't be saying such things (whereas there are loads of stereotypes about working class men being sexist).

Ah you might be right here, it's the "contrast" between their assumed respectability and their actual behaviour. There's just something about the way these stories (rugby clubs, hockey clubs, oxford colleges etc) appear that's different and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I mean they hardly get reported. I think I'm still reeling from the sheer amount of publicity that arse Blunkett got for his Roma comments - like the Roma are this massive issue in this country, when as you say the kind of thing in the video clip is actually normal (even if not commonplace iyswim)

 

[butchersapron]

They have always gone on but they were hidden (What did all those rugby playing doctors get up to?) due to the smaller numbers of w/c kids entering university in the past but the wider knowledge of how things operate at these places that student expansion brought and the ease of documenting and circulating their behaviour today has changed things.

 

[Dogsauce]

There's bus routes near the university up here where this kind of rowdiness is just the norm on a Friday/Saturday night - not necessarily misogynistic or threatening, sometimes good-spirited, benign or funny (though usually just annoying). I imagine other towns with big colleges are the same. It'd be hard for bus drivers to police, in that it's probably difficult to judge where a line has been crossed between 'high spirits' and stuff that is sinister or threatening. A lot of it probably gets tuned out by the driver as background noise, so unless someone makes them aware of it then it's not that fair to expect them to act on it. Maybe we need more conductors back on.

 

[weepiper]

It has always gone on in private or private-ish situations - rugger buggers sang the Good Ship Venus when I was a teenager 20 years ago, but I don't recall it having been so publically acceptable then, that's a new development. They'd have done it in their club or behind their hands sniggering, not bellowing it out loud on a crowded bus.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It has always gone on in private or private-ish situations - rugger buggers sang the Good Ship Venus when I was a teenager 20 years ago, but I don't recall it having been so publically acceptable then, that's a new development. They'd have done it in their club or behind their hands sniggering, not bellowing it out loud on a crowded bus.

Yup, I'd agree with this - it's the public and widespread nature that seems to have changed. I remember the guys I semi hung around with in my first year saying some pretty sexist stuff within the confines of the group (not this sort of thing, but slagging off women based on their looks, being patronising etc.) but I also remember them still being pretty respectful of women in clubs and stuff. They certainly wouldn't have done this (although I'm sure even at the time, they weren't the worst for casual sexism).

There was a recent article about a club night I used to go to 15 years ago, which is now being an entire evening of promoter sanctioned/encouraged sexual harassment. Whilst it was always a bit dodgy in other ways, I know it wasn't anything like that when I went there.

 

[co-op]

They have always gone on but they were hidden (What did all those rugby playing doctors get up to?) due to the smaller numbers of w/c kids entering university in the past but the wider knowledge of how things operate at these places that student expansion brought and the ease of being able to document and circulate their behaviour today has changed things.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the real elite schools when they train future leaders in reputation-management; if you think of all the fuss Cameron and Co made just to try and suppress *that* Bullingdon club photo (which is quite innocuous really, just a fancy dress party to a lot of people) then presumably they must want to make sure that real misbehaviour is kept completely invisible and they must be instructed in how to do this in the digital era. Film of the Bullingdon doing their thing would be very very damaging in a way a posed still photo just isn't.

 

[Corax]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I don't think there's any co-incidence that as women have gained more financial and social independence, then this sort of "lad"/rape culture has increased, along with objectification.

Has it? Or is it just that such attitudes are documented (inc. the interwebs) these days, whereas before it was no better but such things were just daily life and thus not 'reported'? When I look at the way women were perceived 10/20/30 etc years ago it certainly doesn't appear likely that women were less objectified, and as for the rape thing the fact that it was legal within marriage until not so long ago must be a pointer.

Genuine question btw - the contention in your post isn't something I've considered before really.

Perhaps it's gained more shock value now as it's become more taboo? But if so, that itself must be better than it not being taboo in the first place.

 

[Corax]

There's bus routes near the university up here where this kind of rowdiness is just the norm on a Friday/Saturday night - not necessarily misogynistic or threatening, sometimes good-spirited, benign or funny (though usually just annoying). I imagine other towns with big colleges are the same. It'd be hard for bus drivers to police, in that it's probably difficult to judge where a line has been crossed between 'high spirits' and stuff that is sinister or threatening. A lot of it probably gets tuned out by the driver as background noise, so unless someone makes them aware of it then it's not that fair to expect them to act on it. Maybe we need more conductors back on.

Whilst I don't think it fair to blame the driver (for reasons above) I disagree with the bit I've highlighted. The line is sexism/racism/other bigotry. 99% of the time that line is pretty distinct.

 

[likesfish]

I know my unit used to sing some waffen SS songs que panic form the OC as the two visting germans might be offened. They of course knew all the words.
Apprantly the somgs had all be de nazified in the 50s but everybody knew the naughty versions and guess which version got sung after a few beers.
But nobody thought singing those songs n public wpuld be smart.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Has it? Or is it just that such attitudes are documented (inc. the interwebs) these days, whereas before it was no better but such things were just daily life and thus not 'reported'? When I look at the way women were perceived 10/20/30 etc years ago it certainly doesn't appear likely that women were less objectified, and as for the rape thing the fact that it was legal within marriage until not so long ago must be a pointer.

Genuine question btw - the contention in your post isn't something I've considered before really.

Perhaps it's gained more shock value now as it's become more taboo? But if so, that itself must be better than it not being taboo in the first place.

Yes, I tend to agree. In the 1970s, blatant objectification of women was part of mainstream culture. In the 1980s, the Sunday Sport was a big-selling newspaper, and page 3 girls like Sam Fox became national figures.

That said, I never look at 'lad mags', which are a fairly recent invention, so I genuinely don't know what they are like. But the magazine this thread was started to talk about was a pretty small-fry publication (and I've just had a look for it on the internet - it appears to have folded already). Before the internet, it would have been a fanzine.

And we have a long way to go, clearly, but I can remember the time when certain judges in court recommended that rape victims lie back and enjoy it. It's not that long ago - 20 years or so - but I think we've moved beyond that now at least.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

That said, I never look at 'lad mags', which are a fairly recent invention, so I genuinely don't know what they are like. But the magazine this thread was started to talk about was a pretty small-fry publication (and I've just had a look for it on the internet - it appears to have folded already). Before the internet, it would have been a fanzine.

Lads mags sales have gone down massively afaik. They really peaked in the late 90s - when I was at uni maybe about half the male students I knew would buy one and most of us would read one. Their sales dropped off dramatically after that and they're not massive sellers now. So if it is getting worse since then I'm not sure they're to blame.

I suppose it might be they appeal to a smaller but more sexist audience now, possibly.

 

[toph]

Lads mags sales have gone down massively afaik. They really peaked in the late 90s - when I was at uni maybe about half the male students I knew would buy one and most of us would read one. Their sales dropped off dramatically after that and they're not massive sellers now. So if it is getting worse since then I'm not sure they're to blame.

I suppose it might be they appeal to a smaller but more sexist audience now, possibly.

The time period coincides with when easy internet access became widely available.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Has it? Or is it just that such attitudes are documented (inc. the interwebs) these days, whereas before it was no better but such things were just daily life and thus not 'reported'? When I look at the way women were perceived 10/20/30 etc years ago it certainly doesn't appear likely that women were less objectified, and as for the rape thing the fact that it was legal within marriage until not so long ago must be a pointer.

Genuine question btw - the contention in your post isn't something I've considered before really.

Perhaps it's gained more shock value now as it's become more taboo? But if so, that itself must be better than it not being taboo in the first place.

Tbh I was thinking of it on a much wider time scale-from Victorian times to now, so the stuff you're referring to could be seen very much seen as a reaction to that growing independence. Btw, I see the abolition of legal marital rape more as an increased social independence rather than a reduction in objectification.

And in many ways, you are right. Certainly I was a kid in the 80s, around the time that Benny Hill and Russ Abott, with their casual objectification of women, were big name TV stars. In the 90s as a teenager I certainly experienced sexist values, harassment and groping, which continued throughout my 20s. However, from the things I am reading about, certainly in a university context (as that what many of the reports have been about), things are sounding a lot fucking worse, from the perceived acceptability of rape jokes to large scale sexual assaults in clubs. As I mentioned in a previous post, I read an article about a promoted night I used to go to 15 years ago, and it sounds completely different (from a blatant sexism perspective) to when I used to go there. Eating disorders still continue to rise afaik. Also look at the changing expectations of how women in music are meant to present themselves. The following was posted by CRI on the bandwidth thread but I think it does make a point in regards to this.

And btw, I completely disagree that these things are becoming more taboo. On TV maybe, but not IRL.

 

[emanymton]

I don't follow pop music at all, but have lyrics really become that much more submissive in general?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Stirling students singing on a bus full of young women about feeling a woman up, giving her their 'Jap's eye' and giving her a miscarriage among other things

Fucking animals.