Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]

[Shippou-Sensei]

i do not treat them exactly the same

i may well criticise one but praise the other

however i allow both

 

[butchersapron]

You must treat them the same if you want, for some reason, to make this incident a question of censorship.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

that would only apply if i had powers to censor

last time i checked i did not

critisism is not the same as censorship

calling for something to be shamed is not the same as saying it should not be published

 

[killer b]

not publishing rape jokes in your promotional posters is not censorship shippy. it's nothing like censorship.

 

[butchersapron]

No, it follows from your own posts and the logic of the argument that you have offered against any censorship. It's irrelevant whether you have the power to censor or not .

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

npt doing it through choice isn't censorship

not doing it because people force you not to is censorship

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

No, it follows from your own posts and the logic of the argument that you have offered against any censorship. It's irrelevant whether you have the power to censor or not .

no it doesn't

i argue that people have a right to express their opinion

i also argue i have as right to critisise that opinion




i'm not sure what i have said that contradicts either of those two statements

 

[butchersapron]

no it doesn't

i argue that people have a right to express their opinion

i also argue i have as right to critisise that opinion




i'm not sure what i have said that contradicts either of those two statements

You don't seem to understand the argument that you've been putting forward here. You argue against any censorship so in terms of censorship you must therefore treat any and all material exactly the same in terms of censorship. Your opinion of that material is meaningless - it doesn't enter into any debate on this terrain.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

i argue against censorship

i argue against it no matter my opinion on the piece.

that doesn't mean i can't hold an opinion on the piece

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

am i missing your point? because if i am i'd like you to clarify it if possible

 

[butchersapron]

Has that ready meal gone straight to your brain

 

[ddraig]

shippy - you can argue all you want to be able to read/watch and draw/write hentai but that is not the same as putting it up in a place shared by others

is it?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

apparently

i don't see where i have contradicted myself or anything like that

 

[butchersapron]

apparently

i don't see where i have contradicted myself or anything like that

Do you agree that in terms of censorship you must treat all material the same if you wish to make your case against all censorship?

 

[ddraig]

shippy
is that an answer to me?
apparently what?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

shippy - you can argue all you want to be able to read/watch and draw/write hentai but that is not the same as putting it up in a place shared by others

is it?

i'm not saying it's the same

and i do acknowledge there is a fuzzy boundary

but however i'm erring on the side where public exposure (and the resulting critisism) is better than banning

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Do you agree that in terms of censorship you must treat all material the same if you wish to make your case against all censorship?

yes

have i ever said otherwise?

 

[cyprusclean]

it doesn't enter into any debate on this terrain.

Vintage Butcher's.

 

[butchersapron]

yes

have i ever said otherwise?

Yes, when i said to you that "you are forced to treat them exactly the same. Your opinion of the views expressed is neither here not there in that case." you replied:

i do not treat them exactly the same

i may well criticise one but praise the other

however i allow both

Which, amazingly both denies that you are forced to treat them the same then goes on to say that you are forced to treat them the same!

 

[Citizen66]

that would only apply if i had powers to censor

last time i checked i did not

critisism is not the same as censorship

calling for something to be shamed is not the same as saying it should not be published

Who has censored anything in this case? Akaik the uni responded to criticism. That's how it should work.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

i am forced to not censor them

i am not forced not to criticise them


i'm not sure what you are not getting at here

are you perhaps conflating my ideas of critisism and my ideas of censorship?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Who has censored anything in this case? Akaik the uni responded to criticism. That's how it should work.

no one has

i wasn't saying they had

i was speaking against calls that it shouldn't have been published in the first place



i will say that if i was the editor i would have have probably bined the article i'm just saying that that power is a dangerous one

i worry a lot more about the ability to stifle opinions thean i worry about people stating those opinions


i worry about WHY people have those opinions and i try to fix those opinion but thats something diffrent

 

[butchersapron]

I'm telling you that in terms of censorship you are forced despite your alternate denial/agreement with me on this, to treat all material exactly the same. And in being forced to this by the logic of this position, then your own opinion on the quality or content of the material is irrelevant to the question of censorship.

And the reason i started down what looked like a nice simple path was to then go on to suggest that a policy based on treating all material regardless of content, context, intention motivation or potential impact is an incredibly crude and simplistic way of looking at an issue that brings together many complex strands of how society works, the relationship between creativity, expression and the public domain between public life and private views, between the state and civil society, between civil society and individual and so on. But, i sort of get the feeling we're not going to get there now

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

well now you have actually said what you were trying to say i understand your point

my feelings are that we need a overly simplified way of looking at content because the complicated way of looking at things is incredibly debatable and in my opinion previous and current attempts to address content are often more damaging that having that content published

i err on the side of having stuff published rather than having stuff censored


i worry more about things like russia ban on promoting homosexual lifestlye than i worry about some uni rag publishing this article

of course no simple rule is going to adrees a complex issue

but when do complex rules work?

 

[purenarcotic]

We live our lives by complex rules all the time yet manage to bumble along somehow.

We don't even think of a lot of the rules as complex because we're so used to them. Lying is a pretty good example of a complex rule: we're taught as children that lying is wrong but quickly realise that it's not as simple as that. There are times when lying is okay, potentially beneficial even, there are degrees of lies and so on.

There is nothing wrong with complexity.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

the more complex something is the more likely it is to be flawed

it is also more likely to be incorrectly applied and poorly explained and transmitted


i prefer simplicity

sometimes we can't escape complexity but i don't belive it is preferable

 

[killer b]

utter rot shippy.

 

[killer b]

people are complicated. life is complicated. you can't just wish that away.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You can't propose a simple rule to deal with complex issues just on the basis of its simplicity. Well, you could but it would be stupid.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

where did i say you could

i said sometimes we can't escape complexity



i perhaps should say we mainly can't escape complexity

but i do say that simplicity is preferable


which of these is wrong

the more complex something is the more likely it is to have something that is flawed

the more complex something is the more likely to be incorrectly applied

the more complex something is the explanation is more complex and difficult

which of those is utter rot




i'm not saying complexity doesn't exist i'm saying we should try to simplify