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Global financial system implosion begins

maybe just one more wafer thin mint?

within capitalism, value seems to be more or less inversely proportional to labour, so the banks always need more money......and lots of it!
 
Problems with hotlinking to the FT. Top link on this google search
QE2 is risky and should be limited FT November 2 2010
Under the label of QE, the Fed will buy long-term government bonds, perhaps one trillion dollars or more, adding an equal amount of cash to the economy and to banks’ excess reserves. Expectation of this has lowered long-term interest rates, depressed the dollar’s international value, bid up the price of commodities and farm land and raised share prices.
The same banks reserves that have been recently marked up as profit?
maybe just one more wafer thin mint?
Mr Creosote? Thank God for Monty Python.
within capitalism, value seems to be more or less inversely proportional to labour, so the banks always need more money......and lots of it!
It certainly seems that way.
So another $500 billion. Plenty of money for the banks. How about the poor?
 
capitalism aligns value very closely with price, so, in the capitalist system, the proportion of the poor's labour value that is surplus, will increasingly be converted to surplus money

unfortunately, the surplus "value" has become virtual and is out of control
 
"Since then, that has collapsed by 6.5 million. Look at Michigan, look at downtown Detroit, look at Ohio, look at Pennsylvania. These were once among the richest and most productive places on earth. They’ve been flattened, lives and communities destroyed. And the devil, of course, makes work for idle hands."

On a smaller scale this is what Thatcher did in the 1980s to mining, heavy engineering, etc in the UK. The village where I live was decimated and has never recovered. We in the UK are a country that makes nothing and sells everything. How many Brits on these boards know someone who actually works making something solid!
 
How many Brits on these boards know someone who actually works making something solid!

I know people, as I work for a company that manufactures certain stuff for the building industry. Manufacturing still makes up a surprisingly large percentage of work in this country, it was indeed quite badly gutted in recent decades but there is still quite a lot of it left.
 
UK manufacturing industry still 4th or 5th biggest in the world after US, China, Japan & Germany, possibly France. It's 16% of the economy, 13% of the workforce. Not as high a % as it should be, for sure, but this whole 'We don't make anything anymore' stuff is rubbish. We do, but it tends to be smaller scale, with higher value-added production rather than giant plant emplying 0000s on a single site.
 
Here is an article about Japan which raised my eyebrows due to the idea that Japan is deglobalising and becoming comfortable with no growth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/09/japan-dangerous-deglobalised-dream

More strikingly, stagnation has found its promoters in Japan itself. A leading public intellectual Naoki Inose, who is also Tokyo's vice governor, has declared that "the era of growth is over." When Japan was threatened by western imperialism, he says, the country had to open up (in 1868) and modernise. This process has been completed. Japan is now ready to reconnect with its own tradition of social harmony and zero growth.
 
Here is an article about Japan which raised my eyebrows due to the idea that Japan is deglobalising and becoming comfortable with no growth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/09/japan-dangerous-deglobalised-dream

Sounds good for them. The guy writing the article just blithely assumes that those in Japan who don't want endless "growth" or big-scale immigration to "replace" their falling population, are automatically wrong.

Having a good standard of living, more social cohesion, while working less, actually sounds quite a neat idea!

Giles..
 
I see 'currency war' fears still dominate the agenda at the moment, in this case the G20 meeting, and with the difference this time being the focus on the USAs policies rather than Chinas:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11731664

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2010/11/obama_on_the_back_foot.html

Nice to see a straightforward acknowledgement from the BBC that the G20 effectively superseded the G8 a couple of years ago too:

Until 2008 the G20 was overshadowed by the smaller G8 grouping of France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK, the US, Canada and Russia.

However, this has changed since the global financial crisis of 2008, and the G20 has effectively now replaced the G8 as the main global economic forum.

The major growth in the economies of G20 members China, India and Brazil has also contributed to the rising importance of the grouping.
 
Bloke on the radio this morning, frothing at the mouth telling us what Tony Blair didn't do went on to suggest that the Euro as it stands is doomed.

A year ago I would have dismissed his rhetoric as just that but now I am starting to wonder, if the going gets really tough, who will go 'fuck it' and pull out of the Euro.

There has to be a point where balancing jobs over economic dogma , jobs will win and they will do just that.
 
Irish Banks, Debt & the Euro Crisis - the Collapse of the European Dream?

There has been enormous coverage in the press recently about the Irish banking and debt crisis, the crisis in the Euro and the anxious diplomatic manoeuvres to keep the European Union together. It is a rarely paralleled birth pang in the development of a confederated union of nation states.

Lest we forget, the important thing to remember about the fiat currency systems that underpin it all is that ultimately they are intrinsically worthless electronic credits, paper and low/variable value scrap metal. Thus, global economic trade from street bazaars to the trading houses of Wall Street, involves exchanging tangible goods and assets of real practical use and real value for something that is essentially intrinsically worthless. Strange as it may sound, people work long hours in difficult jobs the world ore in exchange for something that is intrinsically worthless. That is the stark nature of things. Of course the 'gold standard' is long gone, and it is probably certain never to be re-introduced in a complete form, at least formally. However, what has replaced it is odd, deceptive, usurious and altogether more interesting. It might best be described as the 'consumer standard'.

Essentially in practice consumers, rather than the issuing banks, are backing the currency, by providing goods and services that it might be exchanged for, or a 'claim on resources'. The perceived value, perceived confidence and the ready acceptance value and exchange of fiat currency within an economy is founded on the generally reasonably reliable confidence that we will find someone else willing to accept it, in exchange for goods and services that we ourselves need. It is part of a large number of reasons why real inflation values of essential goods and services are so high, as (highly quantitatively eased) fiat currency is chasing assets of real value within the economy, such as commodities. When the US and the UK turn on the printing presses of their central banks (creating new 'claims on resources', often abroad, in the resource rich developing world) it forces other countries to do the same. Stoking the cost of important commodities, pricing food outwith reach of their own poor, and inflating the value of their currencies relative to others.

Currency is simply a product itself, issued by central and retail banks, intrinsically worthless of course, but a useful, and essential transitive means of accounting for and exchanging a common value for goods and services. But it never in practice, strangely enough becomes a 'claim on the resources' of the issuing bank.

However, a little mentioned or megaphoned point in the global mass media is that fiat currencies can - and very often do - become virtually worthless overnight due to loss of confidence, a disaster, an electronic or other systemic collapse or government decree. Witness the Russian rouble in the 90's, East Germany currency post reunification, the temporary issue with the Icelandic Kroner in 2008 and the Zimbabwe situation. Government decree that they would back the collapsing occidental banks following the 2008 crash, preserved confidence in many currencies, and in many notable names in world finance. But government decree isn't always to be relied upon. For those who have a stake or exposure in some way to the Euro (and that to a lesser or greater degree is the whole world), it always pays to hedge your bets though. My feeling though is the survival of the Euro is probably assured. In the unlikely event it collapsed, it would probably be interchangeable favourably or on comparative terms with whatever currency replaced it.

Without a readily accepted common currency European trade and commerce, from the High Street up, would virtually collapse overnight for months, even years. So the motivating factors for preserving and bolstering the Euro, between citizens and government, and between government and corporations (much as we sometimes often loathe them, and much as they often loathe each other) is very high.

Relatively peaceful though things may outwardly appear in civic society, not since the collapse of the German Weimer Republic and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria, have the stakes, the risks and the dangers in Europe been higher.
 
Sounds good for them. The guy writing the article just blithely assumes that those in Japan who don't want endless "growth" or big-scale immigration to "replace" their falling population, are automatically wrong.

Having a good standard of living, more social cohesion, while working less, actually sounds quite a neat idea!

Giles..

Yeah I was quite amused by how disgusted the writer sounded at the Japanese for working less.

Anyone harking back the the Edo regime as being a model for a modern, democratic society to base itself on should be treated with utmost suspicion IMO.
 
There has been enormous coverage in the press recently about the Irish banking and debt crisis, the crisis in the Euro and the anxious diplomatic manoeuvres to keep the European Union together. It is a rarely paralleled birth pang in the development of a confederated union of nation states.

Lest we forget, the important thing to remember about the fiat currency systems that underpin it all is that ultimately they are intrinsically worthless electronic credits, paper and low/variable value scrap metal. .

I stopped reading 'at fiat currency systems'. Fuck off, you Austrian School Randist Ron Paul twats.
 
fiat currency wasn't the problem, that was just talking without saying anything. "confederated union of nation states" is the stop reading bit this birth pang was anticipted, which was why those wanting a confederation opposed the EUro, "the birth pang"is a driving force towards federalism.
Major problem now is, those nations that pick up the check (mainly UK and Germany) can be outvoted by the basket cases in need of bailing out.
 
Anyone harking back the the Edo regime as being a model for a modern, democratic society to base itself on should be treated with utmost suspicion IMO.

Yes, if people REALLY went that far, which they won't.

But at some point, the whole world is going to have to accept that the model of SUCCESS = GROWTH can't work forever.

If some people decide, actually, now that we've pretty much got all the creature comforts we could want, enough food, etc, we'd rather do just enough to maintain that, and have more time to enjoy life, and not work our arses off for 50 hours a week to achieve GROWTH, fair play to them.

Giles..
 
I stopped reading 'at fiat currency systems'. F*** off, you Austrian School Randist Ron Paul twats.

Describing paper, 'promise to pay' currency (backed in practice by nothing but confidence and convention of use - i.e. thin air) as 'fiat currency' does not make anyone an 1) Austrian School Randist or 2) follower of Ron Paul. [Incidentally, I am neither!]

Fiat currency is a descriptive term, referring to currency backed by government decree. It doesn't carry with it any major or specific ideological, economic school or party political baggage with it.

If you are happy with fiat currency, and don't have any problem with the idea that money in circulation should be sound, kosher, protected from debasement and be credible - money that you yourself also presumably use and exchange for goods and services - then you should simply say so.

There's certainly no need to resort to childish insults, simply because of rapidity of judgement or lack of knowledge.

However, given the massive economic and social consequences of declining confidence in a currency, coupled with debasement (for example, the increasingly high inflation in core goods and services that we are seeing now, against a backdrop of stagnating wages) I personally would recommend thinking twice about that position.

Private banks have been bailed out with virtually unlimited new public funds created by the government. Bar the solitary scalp of Fred "the shred" Goodwin, an army of incompetent banking buffoons remain in pivotal positions as 'lords of the economy' with ermine lined bonus packages to match. While pensioners freeze, students get loaded with spiralling debts and people lose their jobs in their millions. Now that all this debt sits on the government balance sheet, vital public services (rather than superfluous and failed parts of the banking industry) are to be decimated and sacrificed to balance the government books. Being happy with this arrangement is a highly curious and minority position to take.
 
Fiat currency is a descriptive term, referring to currency backed by government decree. It doesn't carry with it any major or specific ideological, economic school or party political baggage with it.
If a nation, lets call it Egolistan, has 1 ton of gold to back it currency and a population of 1 million people and x amount of economic activity. Then by 50 years time advances in technology, increased availability of energy and increased efficiency of use energy has seen its economic activity double to 2x, but its population only increase by 10 percent and its gold reserve also only increase by 10 percent then Egolistan will have suffered massive deflation.

It would have been far more worth while to hoard the gold than invest it in new technologies and industries.

Non fiat currencies only work when the supply of the comodity keeps pace with the rate of change of technology. Moores law fucks goldbugs.
 
If a nation, lets call it Egolistan, has 1 ton of gold to back it currency and a population of 1 million people and x amount of economic activity. Then by 50 years time advances in technology, increased availability of energy and increased efficiency of use energy has seen its economic activity double to 2x, but its population only increase by 10 percent and its gold reserve also only increase by 10 percent then Egolistan will have suffered massive deflation.

It would have been far more worth while to hoard the gold than invest it in new technologies and industries.

Non fiat currencies only work when the supply of the comodity keeps pace with the rate of change of technology. Moores law fucks goldbugs.

I totally agree that a return to a complete gold standard is out of the question. There simply isn't enough gold in the world to return to one. The expansion in supply acheived through mining in the 20thC would have not have been sufficient to fuel economic growth - and thus cater for population growth - since the phased withdrawal from the gold standard 1930's-70's, and will certainly be insufficient in the future given economically viable seams of gold are becoming few and farther between (so-called 'peak gold').

Countries only trend towards a return to a gold standard unofficially as a last resort when fiat currencies collapse or becomes worthless. But there are other additional precious metals in existence too, plus rare earth metals and base metals. There must be a move towards backing currencies with a combination of something more solid, as unrestricted and essentially baseless expansion of the fiat money supply and consequent asset bubbles in property were the prime triggers for the financial crash of 2008 and the Great Contraction that has followed. There must be a strong foundation, and a limitation of footloose and fancy free fractional reserve banking and fiat money expansion in order to ensure and maintain confidence in the system.

Without it, the seismic damage to the foundations and the confidence in it can not really be rectified, with any great degree of reliability or permanence.
 
Chris Hedges: Move from culture of domestic production to financial speculation and import consumption at root of US & western economic crash


 
'Slow grind' to economic recovery in Scotland


BBC News, 28/11/2010: Scotland's economy will avoid a double-dip recession but full recovery will not be achieved for a decade, according to a leading economic forecaster...It said it could be 10 years before employment reached pre-recession levels. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11853890
Unemployment remains high at the moment, and has been consistently high for decades. Then add the next 10 years of new entrants to the labour market (from schools, colleges etc). Against this backdrop, and a prediction by Ernst & Young of years of virtually stagnant conventional economic growth, it is clear that unless the problem of over-work and over employment is tackled (i.e. excessive overtime, people with more than 1 full-time job) unemployment will remain atrociously high permanently. This level of inequality and economic disenfranchisement - both socially and societally - is a path to ruin and quite simply unsustainable.
 
Chris Hedges: Move from culture of domestic production to financial speculation and import consumption at root of US & western economic crash

Gore Vidal wrote in his collection of essays, United States (1952–1992)



On 16 September 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire died.
Gore Vidal
 
Gore Vidal wrote in his collection of essays, United States (1952–1992)

"On 16 September 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire died."

I wouldn't be so sure. Weren't they incredibly busy expanding it in Central and South America (with client dictators and with spheres of influence in the 80's). The revolutions in the former USSR satellite states. In the demise and takeover of Iraq & Afghanistan. And now with the Korean situation. An American Empire of military bases and compliant governments and other regimes peppered inside practically every country around the world is still arguably an Empire, even if the colour of the country on the map isn't red, white and blue. Like it or not, and like the US or not, strategically the US may be gambling long term that covert occupation, foreign government gerrymandering and resource hegemony will - in the end - supercede the drawbacks of debtor nation status.
 
Umm, the US empire is already dead. All over bar the shouting. Vidal was right.
 
Umm, the US empire is already dead. All over bar the shouting. Vidal was right.
Not that I'm specifically calling for it - that is up to each respective country and the self-determinism of their own citizens to decide - but I'll believe it once I see all the expensive bases being dismantled around the world, especially in Saudi Arabia, Germany, Japan and Diego Garcia. And see Diego Garcia returned to it's people. Until then, the US Empire - and US military hegemony - remains comparitively alive and well.
 
The empire isnt dead. Its weakened and has numerous severe challenges ahead. And it has more competition than it did in the years following the soviet collapse. For years it was described as the only remaining superpower, and as time goes on this will no longer be the case, but its still number one right now.
 
I wouldn't be so sure. Weren't they incredibly busy expanding it in Central and South America (with client dictators and with spheres of influence in the 80's). The revolutions in the former USSR satellite states. In the demise and takeover of Iraq & Afghanistan. And now with the Korean situation. An American Empire of military bases and compliant governments and other regimes peppered inside practically every country around the world is still arguably an Empire, even if the colour of the country on the map isn't red, white and blue. Like it or not, and like the US or not, strategically the US may be gambling long term that covert occupation, foreign government gerrymandering and resource hegemony will - in the end - supercede the drawbacks of debtor nation status.

Vidal is not averse to a bit of hyperbole and I'm sure that he was describing the start of a process. Empires take a while to die.

I'd suggest that he's saying that the costs become impossible in the long term. The ability to print dollars delays the process. If peak oil really kicks in then their "resource hegemony" is in doubt.
 
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