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Global financial system implosion begins

Jessidog said:
"China - the biggest eva bubble."

Just seen this...well yeah, duh! Isn't is remarkable how, despite the collapse in it's primary export markets, and the falling off of domestic consumption, factory orders are consistent, and annual GDP growth will be exactly the 8% generally considered by the CP to be consistent with growth in China? That no one, no one, has any real idea of the scope of bad dedbt in China? No regional party types offering up iffy numbers about growth in their regions?
 
Insolvency practice says 'Things are getting better, but might get worse in a few months time when the tap of govt support is turned off.'

Not an original observation, really, is it?

It goes on to say '"Experience of the last four recessions tells us that unemployment levels and corporate and personal insolvencies have lagged behind technical recession by one to two years.' So they're also saying 'This recession won't be any different to any of the others.'
 
So: how's the economy doing so far? :D


Apart from the unprecedented scale of the various bailouts and stimulus packages, the cost of which nobody seems to know how to recoup, widespread uncertainty as to whether another crash, possibly worse than this one and with no possibility of further bailouts and stimuli, is already on the horizon, and mounting worldwide unemployment, it seems to be doing pretty well.
 
Insolvency practice says 'Things are getting better, but might get worse in a few months time when the tap of govt support is turned off.'

Not an original observation, really, is it?

It goes on to say '"Experience of the last four recessions tells us that unemployment levels and corporate and personal insolvencies have lagged behind technical recession by one to two years.' So they're also saying 'This recession won't be any different to any of the others.'



What else are they likely to say?
 
My point being that, once again, someone on this thread has posted a link to something that says little of any import (other than getting the practices name into the papers in some articles this morning, so it worked), insight or real substance and spun it as a harbinger of greater doom to come.
 
My point being that, once again, someone on this thread has posted a link to something that says little of any import (other than getting the practices name into the papers in some articles this morning, so it worked), insight or real substance and spun it as a harbinger of greater doom to come.


In a way it is a harbinger of more to come when even the economic mainstream finds it difficult to paint a rosy picture.
 
The actual meat of that report is that this recession is, so far, following the same pattern as others and that it could go tits, or not. Just as it could have at this point in the last 4. It says nothing, but has been used a totem of doom.
 
The actual meat of that report is that this recession is, so far, following the same pattern as others and that it could go tits, or not. Just as it could have at this point in the last 4. It says nothing, but has been used a totem of doom.


I don't see that anybody actually said anything about doom.
 
forecasting a 10%-20% fall in house prices this year

Forester believes that the next housing decline will start in the second quarter of the year. He said several factors, including expiring government support programs and falling demand, will lead to the drop.

One of the causes will be the government's Home Affordable Modification Program, which allowed trial modifications of loans that would keep homes out of foreclosure. But, said Forester, very few of the modifications have been made permanent -- about 7% according to latest figures -- and that means there'll be many homes facing foreclosure this year.

Forester also pointed out that existing home sales fell 16% in November -- a worrying sign that may suggest programs like the First Time Homebuyer credit have run out of gas. December's existing sales numbers will be released on Jan. 25.

He highlighted another factor that could mean trouble in the housing the market -- the Federal Reserve's plan to end its programs of buying mortgage-backed securities and debt from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The programs are set to end by April 1, and Forester thinks it could mean mortgage rates rise by roughly 0.75%-1%.

"And if rates are at 6%, it becomes harder to buy a home or refinance a mortgage," he said -- further depressing the housing market.


Banks are still valuing homes too highly on their balance sheets so they are vulnerable to a downturn in home prices again,"

his dire predictions may not happen, especially if the government takes further action,

Same old same old. When the huge amount of money the government is pumping into the economy starts slowing much of the recovery will begin to falter. The mortgage relief programs have been strongly criticised in the US as not doing enough or not being permenant only temporary measures. The down side is that it has kept people in a house paying for a mortgage they will still lose so it has been worse for them, stopped them from cutting there losses and renting. Moreover the bulk of the houses in arears are yet to begin foreclosure for a number of reasons, the traditional that banks wait until a recovery to foreclose, as well as the more modern that they dont have enough staff or cant get the court room to foreclose, that they dont want to take the write down, that they actualy wont benefit from foreclosure due to complex ownership of the property and so on means that there is supposed to be a huge amount of housing stock that will start coming onto the market if or when it improves enough. This is often refered to as the "shadow inventory" (or atleast those in some stage of foreclosure is).

Estimates bandied about give figure of circa 10% of US mortguages delinquent. Many and perhaps most of those will not foreclose, but many will. We might see three million get foreclosed out of seven million delinquent.

What does that do to the economy? Depresses house prices and increases the rate of delinquencies. Makes for another brutal run of bank write downs and all the mania that accompanied them and will likely see the more global economic retrenchment and another nasty long recession. The other option is huge government subsidies to keep housing alive. How many hundreds of billions, how many trillions is going to be borrowed to buy a recovery? What will the cost of all that borrowing be economicaly, politicaly?

The core fundamentals that Americans were living on borrowings not earnings, that lack of growth in labour earnings was erroding the spending power of US and other workers, that the world was wracked with unsustainable balances of trade of assisted by artificial currency manipulation, that the federal government was spending way more than it brought in in terms of tax recipts, that banks balance sheets were grossly over valued with over priced housing assets, that westerners did not have enough money saved for a coming surge in retirements and on and on. These problems have not gone away. Some have gotten dramaticaly worse and other slightly improved.

It may not be doom but it is sure as fuck gloom.
 
I watched High Anxieties: The Mathematics of Chaos at a mate's the other evening. Scary stuff. If what we're seeing is the onset of chaos in economic and environmental systems, we're in for a wild ride.

The climate will do it's own thing and we'll have to adapt as best we can. As for the economy, I think NEF and the Green New Deal group have the right kind of ideas.

I reckon we should all join the Slow Movement and calm the fuck down. We need to reduce gain in the system and restore stability. We need Sloth not Growth. :D
A crazy idea perhaps, but it might just work.
:hmm:
 
Indeed, rating-agency downgrades, a widening of sovereign spreads, and failed public-debt auctions in countries like the United Kingdom, Greece, Ireland, and Spain provided a stark reminder last year that unless advanced economies begin to put their fiscal houses in order, investors, bond-market vigilantes, and rating agencies may turn from friend to foe. The severe recession, combined with the financial crisis during 2008-2009, worsened developed countries’ fiscal positions, owing to stimulus spending, lower tax revenues, and backstopping and ring-fencing of their financial sectors.

More ominously, monetization of these fiscal deficits is becoming a pattern in many advanced economies, as central banks have started to swell the monetary base via massive purchases of short- and long-term government paper. Eventually, large monetized fiscal deficits will lead to a fiscal train wreck and/or a rise in inflation expectations that could sharply increase long-term government bond yields and crowd out a tentative and so far fragile economic recovery.

Americans are deluding themselves that they can enjoy European-style social spending while maintaining low tax rates, as under President Ronald Reagan. At least European voters are willing to pay higher taxes for their public services.

But if the US does use the inflation tax as a way to reduce the real value of its public debt, the risk of a disorderly collapse of the US dollar would rise significantly. America’s foreign creditors would not accept a sharp reduction in their dollar assets’ real value that debasement of the dollar via inflation and devaluation would entail. A disorderly rush to the exit could lead to a dollar collapse, a spike in long-term interest rates, and a severe double dip recession.

http://www.project-syndicate.org//commentary/roubini21

The whole thing is well worth a read.

Greek government bonds tumbled, led by two-year notes, after European Commission President Jose Barroso said the region’s economy is at a “delicate moment.”

Bloomberg

Soveriegn debt is not starting to weigh heavily on the world economy. It cannot carry on growing so where will that leave the stimulus.

Germany is exiting stimulus as perhaps the best shaped economy in the developed world but even they are slowing as the stimulus is withdrawn.

This does not bode well for the other countries who will have to start wrapping up their stimulus packages or face much higher borrowing costs. And soveriegn debt has been bought like candy by the banks who have stuffed there balance sheets with safe assets.
 
This is the Al Jazeera clip on Ordos - bonkers...



China is like Dubai x 1000??

Merryn Somerset Webb: China’s going the way of Spain, Ireland and Japan
By Merryn Somerset Webb
Published: January 15 2010 17:23 | Last updated: January 15 2010 17:23

It is the fastest-growing consumer of luxury goods in the world. It will have an economy bigger than the US by 2027 (or maybe 2030, depending on who you listen to). It has 70 big cities, all crammed with new-build apartment blocks. It is home to the world’s largest dam. It buys more cars than America and produces half the world’s steel. It has grown somewhere between 8 and 10 per cent every year for decades and can keep doing so. It is the world’s second-largest consumer of energy. It produces 60 per cent of the world’s buttons in just one of its towns. It has a huge population with a growing middle class poised to gobble up every consumer good in sight.

Yes, it’s China – the world’s current miracle economy, the country that will dominate the decade, and the best possible home for your savings during that decade.
That, at least, is the hype. But how much of it stands up to scrutiny?

At the end of last year, I wrote here that while I agreed with much of the China story, I wouldn’t touch its markets because they were far too expensive.

But having looked at things in more depth, I’m beginning to doubt the status of the economic miracle itself.

Why? Because, right now, it rests on about the most unstable of foundations there is: rampant credit growth.

China has been growing fast – at around 10 per cent a year – for about 30 years. That, says a note from Pivot Asset Management, combined with the fact that the growth has mostly been investment led, means that, “both in its duration and intensity”, China’s capital spending boom has now outstripped all other “previous great transformation periods”, such as those of postwar Japan and Germany.

The point? That China’s growth cycle is more mature than emerging:
it has most of the infrastructure it needs already, and so should be slowing rather than accelerating its capital spending.
When you look at where capital spending is now going, that makes sense. On YouTube, you will find an amazing film of the city of Ordos. It is newly built and could be home to 1m people. Instead, it’s empty. With prices rising 50-60 per cent a year in some areas, its houses have been bought by investors expecting to make a turn without having to bother with pesky tenants. Think Manchester 2006.

And it isn’t just residential cities that are empty. China now has more ports, offices, airports and steel factories than it will know what to do with for many years to come. Commercial property vacancy rates in central Shanghai are said to be as high as 50 per cent.
Yet far from pulling back on building, the Chinese are pushing on at speed. In the first three quarters of 2009, China’s industrial capacity expanded at more than 25 per cent. So what’s going on? It’s all about the global credit bubble. Its collapse was nasty for China. Much of China’s expansion was based on exporting goods to westerners buying them on credit, so vanishing credit quickly meant vanishing exports.

China’s response has been to try to keep its famous growth rate going (and head off social unrest and so on in the process) by replacing export demand with state-sponsored demand – $586bn worth of it in direct spending and many billions more in unfettered bank lending.

The result? Its very own credit bubble. Today, far from being the miracle economy of the popular imagination, China looks to be caught in a nasty trap of artificial and unsustainable growth driven by rapid credit growth and bubble psychology (everyone thinks the authorities can and will stop asset prices falling).

In the first five working days of January alone, China’s commercial banks are said to have lent out the equivalent of more than $50bn. Not good.

Dylan Grice of Société Générale points to a recent study from the National Bureau of Economic Research that looked at 60 financial crises going back 140 years and asked if there was one good indicator of a coming crisis. There was: rapid credit growth.

Look at it like that, and the Chinese miracle begins to look like it might end in rather the same way as the Irish, Spanish and Japanese miracles.
Still, the state of an economy is rarely the best predictor of stock market returns. The price you pay is. I’ve just been reading John Cassidy’s latest book How Markets Fail, The Logic of Economic Calamities. In it, he reminds us that researchers have shown again and again that value stocks (those with a low price/ earnings ratio or low price- to-book ratio, or dividend ratio) “systematically outperform” so-called growth stocks.

But look at the Chinese market now and there is, I think, one thing you can be pretty sure of: overall, you are not getting much value. As Peter Tasker pointed out in the FT earlier this week, the Shanghai market trades on a Graham and Dodd price/earnings ratio (which uses the 10-year average) of around 50 times. Hard to see how it could systematically outperform from that kind of starting point, isn’t it?
 
failed public-debt auctions in countries like the United Kingdom

Slight exaggeration there, non? It happened once, and represented about 5% of the total bond issue. Hardly a 'failure'. Good article otherwise tho.

Germany is exiting stimulus as perhaps the best shaped economy in the developed world but even they are slowing as the stimulus is withdrawn.

Yeah, but it, and France, will be fucked when the PIIGS default and come begging for money from the ECB.

China is like Dubai x 1000!!

I've been banging that drum for months...
 
But since wave after wave of deregulation in the 1980s and 1990s, the business of banking has become far more complicated. Today, as well as investing funds on behalf of their clients, many banks make hefty bets using their own money – a practice known as "proprietary trading". Bank staff taking part in such activity are often referred to in City parlance as the "prop desk".

Not only might the prop desk be betting on the direction of share prices, acting like an in-house hedge fund, it might also be gambling on property, complex derivatives, commodities ,or any traded asset.

The potential conflicts of interest involved have been brutally exposed by revelations of Goldman Sachs's behaviour during the boom years. Its traders were bundling up loans into collateralised debt obligations (CDOs), the complex assets that became notorious for amplifying the sub-prime crisis, and selling them to Goldman clients. Yet at the same time, the bank was using its own money to short CDOs – in other words, to bet that their value would fall. It is these contradictions that Obama now wants to outlaw.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/21/proprietary-trading-wall-street-banks

The only reason I can think of for not burying Goldman's in a many billion $ lawsuits would be the too big to failness of them; the poor would end up paying the compensation to still rich investors.

But with the Volcker Rule in place, Goldman's won't have any government guarantees; they'll be on their own.

Yes? No?
 
There've been problems with what is now called proprietary trading since the Milken junk bond shenanigans - Drexel and lots of others failed to erect sufficient 'chinese walls' between the teams working in IB and trading for the company books. Nothing has changed since then from the look of it, unsurprisingly.
 
But will there be lawsuits? Assuming that Volcker has made it risk-free for the government to let investors have their revenge.
 
Knowing the way the US works, someone will at least attempt to get a ruling on whether a lawsuit could be pursued whatever. I doubt that any clients will be able to sue the Goldman partners for prop trading against their clients tho.
 
Knowing the way the US works, someone will at least attempt to get a ruling on whether a lawsuit could be pursued whatever. I doubt that any clients will be able to sue the Goldman partners for prop trading against their clients tho.
Depends how incriminating the timelines are, surely? When were they advising clients to buy, and when were they shorting them? They know that shorting a stock will itself cause the value to fall. The timing of those two decisions, and who knew what and when, will be rather pertinent.

Goldman's is unusual amongst banks in promoting team-work and open communication amongst its team. They don't do lone wolf.
 
The argument would run that so long as those shorting the stocks didn't know that other teams were advising a buy, or vice versa, there's nothing wrong. This is the supposed chinese wall.

Who knows? If someone gets a ruling that a court will hear argument in the US, they'll subpoena all the relevant trading records and even if it doesn't result in a lawsuit, the damage to Goldman's reputation would be phenomenal - it would essentially amount to the whole bank involved in a huge insider dealing scam, possibly the biggest ever, and they'd fold in weeks, possibly days (look how quickly Drexel collapsed once Milken and co had been exposed - no one would trust them about anything).
 
For 660 000 Americans December is the month hope died.

WSJ

The unemployment rate managed to hold at 10% in December only because of an extraordinary shrinkage in the labor force: Some 661,000 gave up looking for a job.

Since the Great Recession began in 2007, some 8.6 million jobs have been lost, according to the bureau; and small businesses, the normal source for new jobs, are still shedding workers. Fewer than 10% added employees, while more than 20% cut back—and the cuts averaged nearly twice as many per firm as the hires at the expanding companies.

The consequence is that the U.S. economy—for decades the greatest job creation machine in the world—is taking longer and longer to replace the jobs already lost. In the 1970s and 1980s, Jane Sasseen noted in a recent report in BusinessWeek, it took as little as one year from the end of a recession to add back the lost jobs. After the eight-month downturn ending in March of 1991, for example, jobs came back in 23 months. After the downturn from the dot-com bust in 2001, it took 31 months. This time it could take as many as five years or even more to recover all of the eight-plus million jobs lost since March 2007. That's because we would have to create an additional 1.7 million jobs annually beyond those for the 1.3 million new people who enter the work force every year.


Today, mainstream Americans are going on a financial diet amid deteriorating family finances. They know now that they cannot spend what they don't have

City and State budgets across America are in a huge mess, there will need to be big layoffs across the US in the public sector and so far the private sector is not hiring. The recovery up till now has been spurred in part by restocking of depleted stocks wich were run down as the big hits of early 2009 came in. This restocking has led to some factory and economic activity. Other increases have come from government stimulus like the cash for clunkers and so on. Early 2010 will give some indication if a slow paced self sustaining recovery is underway or if the US will again enter a period of slightly negative growth.

All the while the federal debt will be running up into the trillions per year.
 
The argument would run that so long as those shorting the stocks didn't know that other teams were advising a buy, or vice versa, there's nothing wrong. This is the supposed chinese wall.

Who knows? If someone gets a ruling that a court will hear argument in the US, they'll subpoena all the relevant trading records and even if it doesn't result in a lawsuit, the damage to Goldman's reputation would be phenomenal - it would essentially amount to the whole bank involved in a huge insider dealing scam, possibly the biggest ever, and they'd fold in weeks, possibly days (look how quickly Drexel collapsed once Milken and co had been exposed - no one would trust them about anything).

Fingers crossed, eh? :)
 
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