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Global financial system implosion begins

Since when are half-trillion dollar government spending packages part of orthodox free-market republican thinking?
How does this represent anything other than a volte-face from your previous politics? Doesn't the Invisible Hand mean that the market weeds out those unable to properly make decisions- and isn't the very existence of these packages interfering in the operation of this market correction mechanism?

Your politics, mears- not mine.
Consistency demands that you stick to your guns doesn't it?
 
Where do you all get this from? The boys are trying to draw a carictature of Mears with your definitions of his political, economic beliefs. You find language I have used in the past to prove your points otherwise its a bunch of pissing in the wind.
 
That is complete nonsense. I believe in tax cuts, free trade and small government. I believe we need a stimulus package here in the states but nothing at the size we are looking at, maybe 500 billion.

Leaders need to get credit flowing through the system. Banks need to lend to each other. Governments need to recapitalize banks. Corporations and small business need access to short term credit. I would hope the US government sells its stakes in banks after the storm blows over. But if the idiot bankers need my taxpayer dollars right now I want restrictions like pay limits.

Welcome to the real world.

Disingenuous cunt.


:(


Woof
 
Where do companies go for financing if not their governments? They are the only institutions with the means to get the systems going at this juncture.

Governments are the only hope to save the free market system right now. The system that has lifted so many many people out of poverty in China and supplied us with our great standard of living in the west. Trying to curb foreclosures and recapitalizing banks should be governments main job. I doubt monetary capital injections into the economy in general will do little but maybe it could help to curb deflation (and maybe pave the way for mass inflation however).

Regulatory systems need to be toughened to catch the crooks like Madoff but I think we can do that without establishing another era of big government.

Maybe you people want nordic style socialism but you will find they have these problems as well, like Sweeden. When the patient is sick and possibly dying (the free market) you need to proscribe some drugs to the patient.

But maybe some of you want the patient to die in the first place. But that is another discussion altogether.
 
1 lesson even the children now know...

There's no such thing as "free markets"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

There's no such thing as "free markets"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

There's no such thing as "free markets"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

There's no such thing as "free markets"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rolleyes:
















































There's still no such thing as "free markets" - never was and never will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:
 
Funny. Nobody seems to have been interested in the warnings the guy below was giving for years...

SEC 'inept' over Madoff fraud, says whistleblower
February, 4, 2009, The Times
Elizabeth Judge
"US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) officials colluded to allow Bernard Madoff's alleged $50 billion fraud to go unchecked, the man who repeatedly tried to blow the whistle on the shamed fund manager, will tell lawmakers today.

Harry Markopolos, a derivatives expert who spent nine years urging the SEC to investigate Mr Madoff, will say that, through their "investigative ineptitude and financial illiteracy" SEC securities lawyers effectively colluded to allow schemes like Mr Madoff's to continue.

In contrast, he will say, it took him just four hours to calculate that the scheme was a scam.

...Mr Markopolos, who formerly worked for a fund that rivalled Mr Madoff's, is to testify at a House of Representatives financial services subcommittee hearing that is examining how to reform US financial services regulation. His damning comments were revealed in a pre-released written copy of his testimony."
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...ectors/banking_and_finance/article5658000.ece
 
Funny. Nobody seems to have been interested in the warnings the guy below was giving for years...
They did. A number of the wealth-management operations looks at the consistancy of his returns and decided they were too consistant. they just didn't broadcast the fact.
 
I speculate that he was able to pay off the people who should/could/ought to have "looked into it"... Too much to lose, so why not grease a few palms... How surprising would that revelation be, if it were to come?:rolleyes:
 
I'm starting to wonder about the cash that was meant to bolster the US banking system having any effect on the worlds largest economy. Half the money has now been spent and there is a lot of comments saying its been misappropriated. 350 billion dollars spent and they aren't sure how or even if it was well spent. The other 350 billion has been held up because they 'need more oversight'.

Talk about the bankers bonuses in this country. It made me laugh when I heard that Goldman Sachs took 10 Billion from the TARP scheme, and then promptly paid 10 billion in bonuses to its staff. They need a few 'way to go' and some hi-fives for that alarmingly brazen finger to the government.
 
The gov [any gov not taking control of their money] should be publicly flogged for stupidity, on that one alone...:rolleyes::hmm:
 
Tomorrow <i.e. the 10th, today - BG> will bring the unveiling of the Obama administration’s overhaul of the Henry “Hank” Paulson bank bailout, the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP). [Apply for funds here.] From the leaks emerging, it looks like a significant portion of the scheme will amount to this: the government will lend money to hedge funds and the like at subsidized rates to buy toxic assets from banks - and the gov will guarantee the investors against losses. Evidently, the administration thinks the toxic assets are being underpriced by the markets. If they’re right, the buyers will make money. If they’re wrong, then we all pay.

From the hedgies point of view, it’s all reward, no risk. Even if the rewards don’t materialize, what have the hedge funds lost? What the public gets out of this is impossible to specify, aside from the risk of massive losses.

I hope this isn’t really what will emerge. But if it is, the Obama administration will have broken new ground in awfulness. The same formula that brought us this mess, an indulgent government encouraging reckless operators playing with other people’s money, will be applied towards solving it.
LBO News
 
Some interesting comments this week from Jim Kunstler:
Peak energy has combined with the diminishing returns of over-investments in complexity to pull the "kill switch" on our vaunted "way of life" -- the set of arrangements that we won't apologize for or negotiate. So, the big question before the nation is: do we try to re-start the whole smoking, creaking hopeless, futureless machine? Or do we start behaving differently?

The attempted re-start of revolving debt consumerism is an exercise in futility. We've reached the limit of being able to create additional debt at any level without causing further damage, additional distortions, and new perversities of economy (and of society, too). We can't raise credit card ceilings for people with no ability make monthly payments. We can't promote more mortgages for people with no income. We can't crank up a home-building industry with our massive inventory of unsold, and over-priced houses built in the wrong places. We can't ramp back up the blue light special shopping fiesta. We can't return to the heyday of Happy Motoring, no matter how many bridges we fix or how many additional ring highways we build around our already-overblown and over-sprawled metroplexes. Mostly, we can't return to the now-complete "growth" cycle of "economic expansion." We're done with all that. History is done with our doing that, for now.
link
 
Thats far too doom mongering to be anything interesting.

That is the way the world is geared right now, you can't change that over night.

I and everyone else was born into it so its not like there is anything other than the status quo to fall back on. So get it working again and slowly change it rather than trying to big bang anything. All I can see that doing is to just impoverish the starving. You'd need the entire planet to get it to change quickly and when does the entire planet agree on anything?
 
I and everyone else was born into it so its not like there is anything other than the status quo to fall back on. So get it working again and slowly change it rather than trying to big bang anything. All I can see that doing is to just impoverish the starving. You'd need the entire planet to get it to change quickly and when does the entire planet agree on anything?

Except that the reason the capitalist economy stopped working, ultimately, was the realisation that we had actually passed the limits to growth some time back. All that was keeping the creaking engine of capitalism lumbering along was blah-blah and Ponzi schemes.

The question now is whether we blow our remaining resources trying to resurrect the festering corpse of capitalism, or focus them into the formation of a sustainable future.
 
The UK Labor movement must draw up plan for when recession turns into depression
http://www.organizedrage.com/2009/02/uk-labor-movement-must-draw-up-plan-for.html

and other interesting snippets

Predicting Crisis: Dr. Doom & the Black Swan
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1027496846&play=1

Nouriel Roubini on prospects for 2009
February 9 2009 15:42
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/89829f7a-f1d1-11dd-9678-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Bloomberg - Roubini Expects US to Play Stronger Role in Banks
http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/v6XrXmJKayNA.asf
 
Bullion sales hit record in rush to safety
By Javier Blas in London

Investors are buying record amounts of gold bars and coins, shunning risky assets for the relative safety of bullion amid renewed fears about the health of the global financial system.

The US Mint sold 92,000 ounces of its popular American Eagle coin last month, almost four times that which it sold a year ago and more than it shipped during the whole of the first half of 2007.

Other countries’ mints have also reported strong sales. “Large purchases of coins are perhaps the ultimate sign of safe-haven gold buying,” said John Reade, a precious metals strategist at UBS.

Inflows into gold-backed exchange traded funds surged in January, pushing their bullion holdings to an all-time high of 1,317 tonnes. Last month’s flows of 105 tonnes were above September’s previous record of 104 tonnes, and absorbed about half the world’s gold mine output for January, said Barclays Capital.

“We estimate that investment demand [into gold] could double in 2009 compared to 2007,” said Mr Reade. “Purchases of physical gold have jumped over the past six months as investors’ fears about the current financial crisis ... have intensified.”

The move into gold is being driven by the very rich, with bankers saying that some clients are hoarding gold in their vaults. UBS and Goldman Sachs said last week that investor hoarding would drive prices back above $1,000 an ounce. On Monday gold was trading at $892 an ounce.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/359da604-f6d4-11dd-8a1f-0000779fd2ac.html
 
Hmmm

If you want to have a look at the upward curve of gold bullion price over the last 5 years, resembles a bubble market, one that looks like its reaching the top. It might go on, gold is a very limited resource, but there are players in that market with a LOT of gold. So much that if they profit take then say good bye to your savings if you invest.
 
Yes, thats one reason I havent gone near gold, not that Ive got a lot of money to invest anyway. I suspect that some who have turned their wealth into gold are not necessarily expecting its value to increase, maybe wouldnt even complain if it went down a bit, just desperate not to lose the lot, and I suppose gold has a fairly long history of retaining some value.

edited to add: If they fear currency collapse and hyperinflation more than any gold bubble bursting, I guess it might be a no brainer. Any flight to safety is ultimately as flawed as the human desire for security, absolute security is impossible, we all gonna die sometime, but that doesnt stop people trying.
 
I see that the BoE quarterly report will confirm worsening growth prospects, despite interest rate cuts and pouring public funds into the black hole that was the financial services industry.
The drop in the value of the pound since the last inflation report in November is thought to be the largest since the Bank was granted independence in 1997.
Tell me about it. The £ has fallen over 25% in 3 months.
:eek: :( :mad:

Oh, and I just spotted this pic, which puts the Wall St bailout in perspective:

bailout_totals.jpg
 
A banker explains:

[FONT=Tahoma,][/FONT]The reality is that we had a large scale grand robbery of the past few years. To make it simple: the Fed printed money, gave it for free to rich people, who lent it to poor people at nice profit instead of paying them wages; reimbursement was possible only if house prices went up, and that lasted for a while. The rich made out like bandits on their assets, financial or otherwise, and the poor thought they were more or less keeping up with the Joneses (the reality was a large-scale transfer of wealth from one group to the other, no bonus points for guessing which was which). Now that it's no longer the case, the poor lose their house, stop paying their debt at some point, put the banks in a pickles, and the economy unravels. Except that the banks are being bailed out, which means, fundamentally, saving the owners of financial assets (bank bondholders specifically, and bond holders in general) at the expense of taxpayers, thus having the government validate and consolidate the past transfer of wealth.

Government debt is meant to try to delay the reckoning (but that can't last - as the headline story shows, the underlying problem is too much debt, and you can't force more debt on an economy that is already choking over - or rather, under - too much leverage); but more than anything, it is meant, as set up today, to validate all the counterfeit money that was given to the rich and loaned to the poor without changing the terms of that global transaction.

Instead, the debtors are going to be made to pay until they're bankrupt - and made to pay a second time as taxpayers (or, more importantly, as beneficiaries of government services or public services that are being cut for lack of money) for whatever they could not afford as borrowers.

A friend comments:
Good times!

:hmm:
 
Times Online February 10, 2009

The economic downturn is so severe that it would surpass even the Great Depression of the 1930s, Ed Balls said yesterday.

In an extradorinary admission about the extent of the financial crisis, the Schools Secretary and a close ally of the Prime Minister, declared that the downturn was the most serious global recession for "over 100 years".

He said: "The reality is that this is becoming the most serious global recession for, I'm sure, over 100 years as it will turn out."

He added: "I think this is a financial crisis more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s."

Joy! :( Let's hope he gave in to hyperbole to impress his audience.
 
He's talking bollocks...we already know it's bad. The comparisons to 1929 are pointless as it's a different world now and this situation is entirely different. It's just lazy journalism being appropriated by lazy politicians.
 
Email from Mr Moore:

2009/2/11 Michael Moore <maillist@michaelmoore.com>

Will You Help Me With My Next Film? ...a request from Michael Moore

February 11, 2009

Friends,

I am in the middle of shooting my next movie and I am looking for a few brave people who work on Wall Street or in the financial industry to come forward and share with me what they know. Based on those who have already contacted me, I believe there are a number of you who know "the real deal" about the abuses that have been happening. You have information that the American people need to hear. I am humbly asking you for a moment of courage, to be a hero and help me expose the biggest swindle in American history.

All correspondence with me will be kept confidential. Your identity will be protected and you will decide to what extent you wish to participate in telling the greatest crime story ever told.

The important thing here is for you to step up as an American and do your duty of shedding some light on this financial collapse. A few good people have already come forward, which leads me to believe there are many more of you out there who know what's going on. Here's your chance to let your fellow citizens in on the truth.

If you have any info that would help, please contact me at my private email address: bailout@michaelmoore.com.

For the rest of you on my email list who don't work in the financial industry, you're probably wondering, "What the heck is this all about? I thought he said he was making a romantic comedy!"

Well, I just can't say much right now. I'm sure you can understand why. One thing I can tell you is that you're gonna like this movie when I'm done with it. Oh, yeah...
So, again, if you work for a bank, a brokerage firm or an insurance company -- or if you have seen things or heard things that you believe the American people have a right to know -- please contact me at bailout@michaelmoore.com.

Thank you in advance for your help!

Yours,
Michael Moore
bailout@michaelmoore.com
MichaelMoore.com

:D
 
US is already in deflation. Core prices – stripping out energy – fell at an annual rate of 2pc in the fourth quarter. Wages are following. IBM, Chrysler, General Motors, and YRC, have all begun to cut pay.

The "real" cost of capital is rising as the slump deepens. This is textbook debt deflation. It was not supposed to happen. The Bernanke doctrine assumes that the Fed can bring down the whole structure of interest costs, first by slashing the Fed Funds rate to zero, and then by making a "credible threat" to buy Treasuries outright with printed money.

Mr Bernanke has been repeating this threat since early December. But talk is cheap. As the Fed hesitates, real yields climb ever higher. Plainly, the markets do not regard Fed rhetoric as "credible" at all.

Who can blame bond vigilantes for going on strike? Nobody wants to be left holding the bag if and when the global monetary blitz succeeds in stoking inflation. Governments are borrowing frantically to fund their bail-outs and cover a collapse in tax revenue. The US Treasury alone needs to raise $2 trillion in 2009.

Where is the money to come from? China, the Pacific tigers and the commodity powers are no longer amassing foreign reserves ($7.6 trillion). Their exports have collapsed. Instead of buying a trillion dollars of extra bonds each year, they have become net sellers. In aggregate, they dumped $190bn over the last fifteen weeks.

The Fed has stepped into the breach, up to a point. It has bought $350bn of commercial paper, and begun to buy $600bn of mortgage bonds. That helps. But still it recoils from buying Treasuries, perhaps fearing that any move to "monetise" Washington's deficit starts a slippery slope towards an Argentine fate. Or perhaps Bernanke doesn't believe his own assurances that the Fed can extract itself easily from emergency policies when the cycle turns.

As they dither, the world is falling apart. Events in Japan have turned deeply alarming. Exports fell 35pc in December. Industrial output fell 9.6pc. The economy is contracting at an annual rate of 12pc. "Falling exports are triggering a downward spiral of production, incomes and spending. It is important to prepare for swift policy steps, including those usually regarded as unusual," said the Bank of Japan's Atsushi Mizuno.

The bank is already targeting equities on the Tokyo bourse. That is not enough for restive politicians. One bloc led by Senator Koutaro Tamura wants to create $330bn in scrip currency for an industrial blitz. "We are facing hyper-deflation, so we need a policy to create hyper-inflation," he said.

This has echoes of 1932, when the US Congress took charge of monetary policy. We are moving to a stage of this crisis where democracies start to speak – especially in Europe.

The European Central Bank's refusal to follow the lead of the US, Japan, Britain, Canada, Switzerland and Sweden in slashing rates shows how destructive Europe's monetary union has become. German orders fells 25pc year-on-year in December. French house prices collapsed 9.9pc in the fourth quarter, the steepest since data began in 1936. "We're dealing with truly appalling data, the likes of which have never been seen before in post-War Europe," said Julian Callow, Europe economist at Barclays Capital.

Spain's unemployment has jumped to 3.3m – or 14.4pc – and will hit 19pc next year, on Brussels data. The labour minister said yesterday that Spain's economy could not "tolerate" immigrants any longer after suffering "hurricane devastation". You can see where this is going.

Ireland lost 36,500 jobs in January – equal to a monthly loss of 2.3m in the US. As the budget deficit surges to 12pc of GDP, Dublin is cutting wages, disguised as a pension levy. It has announced "Rooseveltian measures" to rescue the foundering companies.

The ECB's obduracy has nothing to do with economics. It fears zero rates as a vampire fears daylight, because that brings the purchase of eurozone bonds ever closer into play. Any such action would usher in an EMU "debt union" by the back door, leaving Germany's taxpayers on the hook for Club Med liabilties. This is Europe's taboo.

Meanwhile, Eastern Europe is imploding. Industrial output fell 27pc in Ukraine and 10pc in Russia in December. Latvia's GDP contracted at a 29pc annual rate in the fourth quarter. Polish homeowners have had the shock from Hell. Some 60pc of mortgages are in Swiss francs. The zloty has halved against the franc since July.

Readers have berated me for a piece last week – "Glimmers of Hope" – that hinted at recovery. Let me stress, I was wearing my reporter's hat, not expressing an opinion. My own view, sadly, is that there is no hope at all of stabilizing the world economy on current policies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...et-calls-Feds-bluff-as-world-falls-apart.html
 
I've been keeping a bit of an eye on Bloomberg news because that has some interesting articles on the economy. I note they are starting to increasingly use the word 'Slump' rather than recession.

I've got a nasty feeling about how this is going to end up, its a snowball that is rapidly rolling down a hill and turning into an avalanche,

On one hand Governments are saying don't be protectionist, but if they give aid to a bank they are saying lend domestically. This is causing huge contraction of lending across the globe and may well be one the factors in the recent worsening of the crisis. The RBS has just pulled the plug on a whole load of foreign lending to redirect it to the UK. This is also starting to happen in the US. Its a form of protectionism by the back door. Isn't protectionism the main driving force behing the slump of the 30?

RBS restricting foreign lending
US on lending

The French government has given loads of money to Peugeot who are now pulling the plug on Eastern European jobs because the French gov said that that was what they were to do.
 
The 30s was as stock-market bubble that burst leading to a failed bailout and the sudden disappearance of lots of apparent wealth that never really existed in the first place. Which sounds a bit familiar.
 
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