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Global financial system implosion begins

You'd not want to be too heavily invested in the Spannish housing market. :eek:

There's a huge glut in the Spanish property market, mainly from the economic boom in the early 2000's... There's also been years of lack of regulation, and corrupt officials ok-ing projects that contravene local planning laws.
 
There are rumors that the LIBOR has beeb manipulated or at least not everyone is being honest with there reporting, the story has now hit the MSM.

Money-market rates may rise after the British Bankers' Association threatened to ban members that deliberately understate their borrowing costs.

Participants have complained that banks may be submitting inaccurate information amid the global credit squeeze, Angela Knight, chief executive officer of the London-based association, said yesterday. The BBA will exclude banks that give misleading quotes and plans to speed up a review of the daily ``fixing'' process by which borrowing costs are determined, it said.

LIBOR is used to fix US subprime mortgages and early next year the nearly as large option ARM resets. It is also used in a number of other ways, but the spread (difference) between the official central bank lending rate and the LIBOR rate, the rate at which banks lend to each other is seen as the key indicator of the credit crunch part of this crisis. As the spread increases, banks are showing less faith in each other.

The European Banking Federation also publishes rates for the euro, or Euribor, gleaned from 44 member banks 90 minutes earlier. The cost of borrowing in euros for three months rose 1 basis point to 4.78 percent today, its fifth consecutive increase and the highest level since Dec. 20, the EBF said. The rate has increased 42 basis points in the past two months.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYNywJOA7X6w&refer=home

Still alot of worry and stess out there, how much?

The Bank of England said financial institutions bid for 50 billion pounds ($99 billion) in its weekly auction, the most in three months, as a worsening shortage of credit increased the need for central bank funds.

The Bank of England offered 13.7 billion pounds in today's weekly auction, it said in a statement in London today. That made the operation more than three times oversubscribed. Bids were the most since Jan. 10.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aEoqz5RYfsz0&refer=home

However others dont think that this is not all that significant...
Peter Dixon, global equities economist at Commerzbank AG. ``Their attitude may be that they don't know what's coming so they'll take what they can when they need it.''

The UK leg of the housing deflation spiral is now starting to look like it is getting underway. Spain has definently been feeling it. So it could be a matter of everyone sitting and watching the UK housing market to get a feel for where things will go next.

But again its not all total doom and gloom, alot of factories in the US have been producing more. The advantage of a dollar thats as cheap as chips. (its flirting seriously with $1.6 to the Euro.)

Others are free to pick the usual holes in what I have wrote.

Oh yeah oil. Oil prices mean the US consumers have even less in there pocket to spend. They are feeling the pinch in spades atm. There is pretty widespread distrust of the official inflation figures as many feel food and petrol are just out of control. These dont count to official inflation figures.
 
Oh yeah oil. Oil prices mean the US consumers have even less in there pocket to spend. They are feeling the pinch in spades atm. There is pretty widespread distrust of the official inflation figures as many feel food and petrol are just out of control. These dont count to official inflation figures.

In the long run it may be the thing that forces auto fuel efficiency up where it should be. I'm seeing huge numbers of people riding the bus system all of a sudden. The bus is considered a last transportation option.

But yeh, I'm feeling the pinch. I certainly don't believe the official inflation figures who peg it at around 4%. I'm not even shopping at the thrift stores any more and I'm looking at my two jobs and wondering if I need a third. I may even need to get a roomate <shudders>.
 
There are rumors that the LIBOR has beeb manipulated or at least not everyone is being honest with there reporting, the story has now hit the MSM.

LIBOR is used to fix US subprime mortgages . . .

It's "Dollar Libor" or "US Libor" that is used to fix US sub-primes.
 
The UK leg of the housing deflation spiral is now starting to look like it is getting underway. Spain has definently been feeling it. So it could be a matter of everyone sitting and watching the UK housing market to get a feel for where things will go next.

For sure - I think we have a 30 to 40% drop in prices coming over the next 2-3 years and a very tough 3-5 years ahead of us. Its difficult to see how the BoE can justifiably cut interest rates much further without inflation really spiraling out of control. The 2.5% figure bandied about here seems to bear little relation to the reality facing consumers on the shelves. I've been away for 6 months and it seems that things (mainly fuel & groceries) are an awful lot more expensive than they were when I left.
 
For sure - I think we have a 30 to 40% drop in prices coming over the next 2-3 years and a very tough 3-5 years ahead of us. Its difficult to see how the BoE can justifiably cut interest rates much further without inflation really spiraling out of control. The 2.5% figure bandied about here seems to bear little relation to the reality facing consumers on the shelves. I've been away for 6 months and it seems that things (mainly fuel & groceries) are an awful lot more expensive than they were when I left.

Unlikely. To have 30 - 40 % drop in house prices would indicate a severe recession, probably even a Depression... Either that or a huge increase in available properties...
 
Unlikely. To have 30 - 40 % drop in house prices would indicate a severe recession, probably even a Depression...

Exactly. We are in for a very rocky road ahead.

Either that or a huge increase in available properties...

This whole supply & demand argument just doesn't work. Proponents of the argument simply say there is a shortage of supply and
1) that on its own underpins prices
2) any prices seems to be justified
That is evidently not the case.
 
Exactly. We are in for a very rocky road ahead.

Problem is, all of the professional analysis I've read (ie, not produced by concerned partners, or by media pundits) don't indicate this... At worst they might a mild, early 1990's style recession...

This whole supply & demand argument just doesn't work. Proponents of the argument simply say there is a shortage of supply and
1) that on its own underpins prices
2) any prices seems to be justified
That is evidently not the case.

So what would be your reason for the inflated housing market, then...? (Btw, I'm not saying that supply and demand is the sole cause...)
 
I'm in agreement with George Soros who states that equilibrium in a free market is not a market determined price for a commodity/ service but that it is in exhuberence with bubbles developing and bursting.

The simple fact is that the average UK income is not sufficient to support current UK house prices. Add to this a repricing in of risk into financial products and we will be seeing a pretty awful revision of prices.

What we're seeing now is just the beginning, the impact of the credit crunch is now (in the last 6 weeks) spilling out into the 'real world.' My guess is the next thing will be a severe slow in consumer spending which will cause further pain and misery. It will become a nasty spiral.
 
Here comes phase two of the housing crisis in America.

Not the subprime that was the warm up act. This one comming is the Alt A crisis.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/20/174324/855/262/497053

Read the whole article but this little statistic just jumps off the page.

Nearly 28% of Alt-A homes are not owner-occupied (aka speculators). Only about 9% of subprime loans aren't owner-occupied. If you don't live there you are much more likely to walk away from a home you can't afford.

This means that 37% of all Alt-A mortgages are delinquent. However, very few of them were delinquent by more than 60 days. Thus we are looking at the early stages of massive foreclosures in Alt-A's.

optionarm.gif



The variable rates for Alt-A mortgages were generally 3-27's and 5-25's. Thus the interest rate adjustments on their mortgages haven't started hitting yet, unlike the subprime market.
All of this and the resets have not started yet.
 
It should be obvious to anyone that Capitalism's glorified Credit Society was doomed to fail sooner or later.
A reason why economics never got my interest, I found it an absolute waste of time to study theories about an artificially created and entertained bubble that can't escape bursting, gets artificially recreated and bursts again until there is nothing left to pump it up.

salaam.
 
I found it an absolute waste of time to study theories about an artificially created and entertained bubble that can't escape bursting, gets artificially recreated and bursts again until there is nothing left to pump it up.

Sounds like religion, another aspect of human desire.
 
Can't knock their customer service.

I think in the US you can. Watching their TV Star preachers telling the followers that God wants them to plunder their bank accounts and transfer it all to theirs... I think they must have a well developed and staffed customer service to keep that business going.

salaam.
 
Here comes phase two of the housing crisis in America.

Not the subprime that was the warm up act. This one comming is the Alt A crisis.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/20/174324/855/262/497053

Read the whole article but this little statistic just jumps off the page.

I know the weekly "sky-is-falling-in" links are fun, but you do know that "Alt-A" is just only slightly better than sub-prime...

"In other words, Alt-A loans are where the mortgage lenders were their most creative in getting risky mortgage borrowers into homes they may, or may not, be able to afford."

And since this group are mostly speculators they tend have other income streams...
 
It seems my contributions to these sort of threads are not all that popular with some people. Oh well. Anyway there is a third major part of the housing crisis that I have not touched on yet. That is the HELOC market. This is a £1.1 trillion dollar form of housing credit. It is Home Equity Line Of Credit. What it is is a line of revolving credit you can take out on your homes value. They literaly give you a chequebook and a atm card with it. Its your home as a 24 hour atm. They are in effect a second morgage on the house. Delinquency in this sector of the housing market is rising fast. Sources now reckon that the HELOCS will account for between $100-$150 billion in losses or about 15% of the market. Which means less money in the economy for consumers.

(from the WSJ)
Standard & Poor's said delinquencies on home-equity lines of credit issued in 2005 and 2006 shot up in March, underscoring continued trouble in the U.S. economy.
S&P said that 9.19% of lines issued in 2005 and 11.45% of loans issued in 2006 are delinquent, up 6.49% and 6.51% from February.

The other side of this is that the falling house values (7.7% drop year on year nationaly) and much tighter credit rules means many people are having there HELOCS frozen or are tapped out as the value of there home drops bellow the amount they already have out with the HELOC. People who have been in homes for years and payed of a large portion of there first morgage now find they are in negative equity.

And off course these have all the usual problems of being wrapped up in CDO's or MBS and covered with CDS's as insurance.

Another catagory that seem to be slipping into trouble is the prime jumbos that is morgages to people with good credit scores (FICOs) who have borrowed above $750 000. This though is not yet quite getting to the same scale as the other classes, just comming onto the RADAR.

Enough bad news for today.
 
It seems my contributions to these sort of threads are not all that popular with some people.
popular with me... carry on please, I've noticed you seem to be well ahead of most on a range of stuff from peak oil to grain shortages to global warming trends to this credit crunch stuff.

sometimes I think maybe it takes someone who's not actually embroiled in the day to day business of different bits of the markets to be able to properly take stock of the situation. Besides those working in the markets aren't exactly renowned for letting joe public know the shits about to hit the fan until they've had time to unload as much of their dodgy stock etc as possible themselves, by which time it's usually a bit late for joe public to do fuck all apart from wonder what the fuck just happened and how come nobody warned them about it.

without going into the specifics, my feeling generally is that we're somewhere between the start and the middle of a seismic shift in global economic and political power. IMO history will judge Bush as being the guy who presided over, and exacerbated the demise of the period of US dominance that essentially began with their astute dealings in WW2, and the brown / blair legacy isn't likely to be much better.

the daft thing is that it needn't have been this way at all. They could have heeded the warnings in the 90's, and future proofed our economies by investing heavily in the inevitable next generation of technologies to move us away from our unsustainable oil dependence, making us not only less vulnerable to the oil price rises (which would have been lower anyway if we'd lowered demand enough), but also giving our alternative energy sectors a massive injection to make sure they were sufficiently ahead of the game to ensure we were world leaders in what's certain to be the biggest growth industry of this century.

instead we blow it all on pointless unwinnable wars that do nothing apart from pushing the price of oil up even higher... which'd be ok if we were a net exporter of oil, but we're not. The UK and US are both now in debt upto our eyeballs - personal debt, national government debt (inc northern rock and pfi's), and corporate debt - and that's at the start of a probable recession, so there's fuck all way we borrow enough to spend our way out of it this time.

basically we're in the process of losing the 'great game' badly at the moment due to arrogance and utter stupidity... this whole credit crunch thing is obviously the immediate cause of the current problems, but there are much bigger underlying issues at the route of it all IMO... that's a little insight into how i see it anyway for what it's worth.

btw, as a little aside, wtf's going on with the exchange rate with the euro? I get posters printed in germany & the price for the same job has risen from around £90 a few months ago to £120 now. The other week it went up £10 (10%ish) in the 5 days between me placing the order and receiving the delivery. :eek:
 
It seems my contributions to these sort of threads are not all that popular with some people. . . .

Not at all, you're expressing a resonably well-read "man on the Clapham Omnibus's" take on these things.

However, you tend to produce facts rather than opinion, facts that, to those peeps who are professionally close to these issues, were well known up to 6 months ago.
 
Not at all, you're expressing a resonably well-read "man on the Clapham Omnibus's" take on these things.

However, you tend to produce facts rather than opinion, facts that, to those peeps who are professionally close to these issues, were well known up to 6 months ago.
so what you're saying is that he's doing a bit of a public service by bringing issues the industry knows about but has largely kept to itself to the attention of the plebs?;)

I reckon I've got more of a feel of what's going on from the various threads and posters on here (yourself included) than from the papers / tv (which I read / watch a lot of news wise), which on a personal note has helped me get my head round why my club promotion business has been struggling over the last year or so, as everone seems to be utterly skint and to have run out of spending money within a week or 2 of payday rather than still having money to spend on the 3rd weekend of the month, and why we've lost the lines of credit we had previously been able to access easily... obviously there are other factors, but the bottom line is a hell of a lot of our market are skint much earlier in the month than they were a year ago, and doing 1-2 nights out clubbing a month rather than 3-4.

hopefully I've managed to adjust to this in time to pull things around, but I'm pretty certain we're experiencing the leading edge of this economic crisis first hand... ah well, shit happens eh:(
 
so what you're saying is that he's doing a bit of a public service by bringing issues the industry knows about but has largely kept to itself to the attention of the plebs?;) . . .
ha ha! really more to do with it being a jargon-laden and somewhat arcane subject that is somewhat simplisticaly reported on by the press and politicians (eg the Gov wanting banks to pass on cuts in base rates to mortgage holders)
. . . but I'm pretty certain we're experiencing the leading edge of this economic crisis first hand... ah well, shit happens eh:(
Atm I am King Ursine, Emporer of the Bear People wrt current global financial outlook.
 
thread is interesting, but i dont post much cos i know naff all about money. i cant predict my balance of money at the end of the month, nevermind understand world finance policy :)
 
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