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General Coronavirus (COVID-19) chat

Ninja said:
The negative result apparently isnt a valid for nightclubs although Im not sure QR code validator app venues might use can actually discriminate between 2 jabs or a test anyway (but dont quote me on that) so this could be a bluff of course.

The outfall might be government/policy makers getting a taste for pursuing laws and regulations that are divisive and deprive targeted people of things that are important to them while bypassing the House of Commons for fear of democracy or scrutiny stopping them. I dont know what or who might be next on their list.

Its probably a safe guess U75ers dont have any great love for the present administration, but I'm surprised members here arent more wary of them on this.
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It might rain next February 12th.

ohno-omg.gif
 
elbows said:
As for the other stuff you mentioned, its certainly true that the government have been guilty of mixed messages, unsustainable claims, contradictions and sometimes leaving large holes in the picture they paint.

Supine already did a good job of puncturing the overly simplistic binary thinking about vaccines. Its not a question of the vaccines totally eliminating transmission, but rather reducing it, to give just one example.

I can agree with you in so much as the government have deliberately not come cleam about all the implications of the Delta variant. They dont want to cross such bridges unless they have to, and will leave such things as late as possible. So far with Delta they were forced to acknowledge some its implications when they delayed 'freedom day'. But other ramifications have been pushed further out and will only make their presence felt if deemed necessary by circumstances in autumn or winter. And then they will acknowledge such things as part of a sales pitch to renew legislation, impose new restrictions etc.

There was also a problem involving the public being oversold a grotesquely oversimplified version of herd immunity and the benefits of vacination, how much pandemic weight vaccines could reasonably be expected to carry on their own. Only a further test of time including seasons like autumn and winter will really inform everyone about quite what to expect from the new normal. A range of possibilities exist, which is why exact predictions about what will happen next are limited so far. The government have pushed ahead more quickly than it is sensible to do, but eventually they may reach the intended destination, just not as quickly as they have often claimed.

I would suggest that the government have tended to sit somewhere in between expert advisors and the right-wing press in regards these expectations, The likes of Whitty and Vallance were careful not to claim they expected sterilising immunity and total lack of transmission in the vaccine era. The right wing shits in the press preferred to paint a delusional picture of the new normal being the same as the old normal. The government have floated around in between, and are easily buffeted by circumstances, very much including the properties of new variants that emerge.

The government are not relying on vaccines alone. They are relying on a mix of vaccines and infections and public behaviour, with tougher back up options available for the worst moments. Its a numbers game and as time goes on they believe the changing susceptibility picture, both via vaccines and infections, gives them more wiggle room to get the numbers to add up (mostly hospital numbers). They do make a mess of it sometimes because of politics and because they want to have their cake and eat it. Their approach is not without risk given there are cycles of raised expectations followed by dashed hopes. They seem to prefer to lead people on a dance via those cycles to other approaches such as a more honest framing about behaviours we can get away with in summer but not winter, for example. The wheels would probably fall of that wagon of theirs if such cycles repeat indefinitely, so they are ultimately banking on the new normal eventually resembling the old normal to a greater extent than seems possible for the rest of 2021 and early 2022.
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Wow quite an epic post and I where do I start!
You mention the drift towards lowering living standards for younger generations to placate the elders and the Vax pass is a huge acceleration and demonstration of this if left unchallenged will give a green light for far more of it. Eg NI tax rises on younger working folk?

I disagree the government messaging has been confused and if anything the nudge unit have been very effective in dictating the agenda but helped by a compliant media (irrespective of whether they are right wing or not). So little is being debated, discussed or other ideas explored.

This same 'nudge unit' have clearly told people vaccines "protect them and the ones they love" and it's clear now the second half is claim too far but can't backtrack on this for fear of being seen taking a U turn on it. Ultimately the drive for vaxpasses is political as it will mainly reassure the oldies - back to your observations.

I'm sure the government are aware that natural immunity will be happening right now but clearly won't recognise it as 'valid' despite it being a real phenomenon of nature.

Can't remember what other points you said now lol
 
It is not all about the nudge unit, thats a dull oversimplification.

For a start there are a good number of behavioural science inputs into government that are not the nudge unit. Secondly the government do not always follow their advice. Thirdly the behavioural scientists often have concerns about the counterproductive nature of certain policy options, and spend quite a lot of time talking about those details.

I dont think I have access to any very recent stuff on the certification stuff. I can see stuff from the SAGE behavioural group from last November which looked at some of the behavioural and social considerations of certification. There are plenty of unknowns and concerns in there, some of which the government seem happy to ignore. Funnily enough a lot of those concerns are often centred around the topic of inequalities and perceived inequalities, the very stuff you tend to focus on!


More recently than that, I expect renewed government interest in using such things for particular settings ha been sponsored by them getting to see what sort of level of vaccine uptake is emerging for younger age groups. And they were probably envious of the apparent success that France experienced in terms of vaccine uptake once they announced various certificate-based restrictions. Eventually I might find out what behavioural scientists thought of this, and what their lingering concerns were, but there is usuall quite some lag between such discussions happening and the papers becoming public so for now I am stuck with my own imagination and assumptions about that.

Broadly speaking its certainly true that behavioural scientists advice usually involves a heavy emphasis on positive messaging, and its entirely unsurprising that limitations to vaccines when it comes to transmission has not been heavily dwelt on in messages to the public. They dont want to put people off bothering, which is a real concern given that some cannot help but think in binary terms about such benefits, eg defeatism in the face of transmission being reduced but not eliminated by vaccination. I expect that should a moment arrive where government become desperate to get people to behave more cautiously again in order to reduce a very high peak, they will speak more loudly about the limitations and the need to do other things to compensate for such limitations.
 
ALso the idea that there is no debate about this is bollocks. There is a 14 page thread here for a start:

www.urban75.net

Papers, please - covid passport bollocks

Well I guess we'll soon have to carry and show our papers/phones everywhere. I am 1000% sure that it won't be mishandled or exploited in any way whatsoever.
www.urban75.net www.urban75.net

I dont think Ive engaged with that thread much yet because I hadnt really decided what I think about these measures. I can see both sides. What I dont agree with at all are attempts to attach this issue to other entirely unrelated politics and predictions about what else the government might do if they 'get away' with this. Thats utter shit, usually designed to add bogus weight to a persons anti-certificates argument. Better stick to the issues directly related to the certificates, because they have fuck all to do with whether the government can raise NI levels etc.
 
elbows said:
ALso the idea that there is no debate about this is bollocks. There is a 14 page thread here for a start:

www.urban75.net

Papers, please - covid passport bollocks

Well I guess we'll soon have to carry and show our papers/phones everywhere. I am 1000% sure that it won't be mishandled or exploited in any way whatsoever.
www.urban75.net www.urban75.net

I dont think Ive engaged with that thread much yet because I hadnt really decided what I think about these measures. I can see both sides. What I dont agree with at all are attempts to attach this issue to other entirely unrelated politics and predictions about what else the government might do if they 'get away' with this. Thats utter shit, usually designed to add bogus weight to a persons anti-certificates argument. Better stick to the issues directly related to the certificates, because they have fuck all to do with whether the government can raise NI levels etc.
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I only mentioned NI (which doesn't impact the retired) as you raised the subject of intergenerational unfairness the other day, and these Vax passes will impact younger generations so surely are related examples of the same issue?
I vaguely remember that doc, and would assume SPI-B advise this and then the nudge unit(s) executes what parts are decided on.
 
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Ming said:
Yep. Do it. I’m a peer immuniser at work (i give other nurses the annual flu jab). Everyone should get it unless you’ve got a good medical reason not to. Covid-19 is likely an endemic so expect to have a regular repeat jab depending on how it mutates.


And combined virus tests ongoing
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Ninja said:
I vaguely remember that doc, and would assume SPI-B advise this and then the nudge unit(s) executes what parts are decided on.
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I doubt the nudge unit have a monopoly on the public messaging, and I would tend to see them as one advisory input into the system rather than being the entity that actually executes the comms.

I believe they were certainly responsible for the 'sing happy birthday while washing hands stuff' thing early on and presumably other gimmicks like that which came later.

But they are the nudge unit, not the shove unit. When looking at possible carrots and sticks to use, lots of the options are far too heavy to be compatible with nudge theory, the stronger stuff runs contrary to the entire concept. So I really dont think the nudge unit is a good fit for people that want to cast an entity in the role of sinister behind the curtain implementer of the heavier shit, their form of manipulation is supposed to be more subtle than that.

For example the wikipedia page for nudge theory has this:

A nudge, as we will use the term, is any aspect of the choice architecture that alters people's behavior in a predictable way without forbidding any options or significantly changing their economic incentives. To count as a mere nudge, the intervention must be easy and cheap to avoid. Nudges are not mandates. Putting fruit at eye level counts as a nudge. Banning junk food does not.
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I would expect them to have had some input on messaging around vaccines, but I'm far from convinced they are the source of some of the heavy stuff government have been resorting to recently. There hasnt been a fully comprehensive messaging campaign about those new things yet either, and I will certainly pay attention if/when these things come into force and we get to see the messaging tied to the moves laid out more clearly, rather than just hearing random stuff in the press or occasionally falling out of the mouths of ministers. I dont expect it to involve many subtle nudges. And from what we have heard so far, its more likely to be painted as the lesser of two evils 'we are bringing in these certificates as an alternative to closing the nightclubs completely' type stuff.
 
If this govt had a valid healthcare policy it would be piling cash on the NHS. It isn't so get jabbed, get a pass and throw scorn on anyone that won't. Divide and rule.
 
teuchter said:
You seem new to the concept of text based discussion boards.
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I don’t think he’s that new. A couple of hours after his self-declared “first post ever” he was referring to forum members as “U75ers”. Suggests a certain familiarity with this place.

I wonder how many previous incarnations he’s had.
 
Somebody has left two of these on my desk - Its a soft rubbery device that looks like some kind of sex toy.

preview.jpg



Its a microphone steriliser. Lined with UV-LEDs apparently - And there is a toaty wee one for tieclips!
 
MrCurry said:
I don’t think he’s that new. A couple of hours after his self-declared “first post ever” he was referring to forum members as “U75ers”. Suggests a certain familiarity with this place.

I wonder how many previous incarnations he’s had.
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Lol it's a public forum anyone can read before signing up 😒
 
pogofish said:
Somebody has left two of these on my desk - Its a soft rubbery device that looks like some kind of sex toy.

preview.jpg



Its a microphone steriliser. Lined with UV-LEDs apparently - And there is a toaty wee one for tieclips!
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3 to 5 minutes turn around time is pretty good, but at £68ish a pop not cheap for large vocal ensembles.
e2a: the other one looks even more sex-toy like, and, it expands...
 
Have got pins and needles in my left hand that won't go away. Have had it since I woke up today. I mentioned it to the nurse who administered my vaccine on saturday (I happened to have an appointment with her today about something else). She seemed to wonder wether it was anything to do with my vaccine. And I do remember thinking that she seemd to administer my vaccine in an unusual way, it was in my left arm aswell. A GP is gonna phone me about it later at about 4pm.

Edit: Just spoke with the Doc on the phone. He doesn't think it's related to my vaccine.
 
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Count Cuckula said:
Have got pins and needles in my left hand that won't go away. Have had it since I woke up today. I mentioned it to the nurse who administered my vaccine on saturday (I happened to have an appointment with her today about something else). She seemed to wonder wether it was anything to do with my vaccine. And I do remember thinking that she seemd to administer my vaccine in an unusual way, it was in my left arm aswell. A GP is gonna phone me about it later at about 4pm.

Edit: Just spoke with the Doc on the phone. He doesn't think it's related to my vaccine.
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Seriously these GP Phone consultations are getting beyond a joke, I have an ongoing infection issue from last may that is still not resolved it took 3 weeks of fobbing off on the phone before I took myself to A&E to be told I had a Raging infection that 2 types of Oral antibiotics followed by 12 days in hospital on intravenous Antibiotics have controlled but not eliminated and I now have a crater in my left arm that looks like someone spooned out a lump of muscle...OK small fry compared to what a lot have suffered but nonetheless probably avoidable if my GP gave a fucking toss and came out from behind her laptop instead of sitting at home counting all the 12 quid per head vaccine fees her practice is getting courtesy of the hard working Nurses and Auxilliaries
 
Badgers and anyone who might know, I have a friend who needs to take a PCR as she has symptoms. I have one but it's over a year old, still packaged, I'm guessing it won't work?
 
Badgers said:
The LFT test kits are good till 2023 so you should be fine
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PCR kits I got for a vaccine study at the start of this year are already out of date, I was given new ones last month and told to bin the ones I had. There should be an expiry date on them somewhere though.
 
iona said:
PCR kits I got for a vaccine study at the start of this year are already out of date, I was given new ones last month and told to bin the ones I had. There should be an expiry date on them somewhere though.
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Shit. We used it and sent it off. I couldn't find an expiry date.
 
I hate looking for expiry dates. They're often in miniature text in obscure places only visible with a magnifying glass and embossed not printed which means you have to catch them just right with the light.
 
Badgers said:
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Ambulatory Care is walk-in acute medicine department btw, take GP referrals of people that need some more treatment that day than a GP can give generally (or need a diagnosis for something that day) and are used partly to avoid admission for things like infections when previously someone might have needed a short stay in hospital. Like a minor injury walk-in centre but for medical conditions, and in a hospital rather than stand alone clinic.

E2A: Just for clarity as it's a fucking confusing name! Means you can walk in and walk out really, not brought in by ambulance.
 
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