Galloway returns to Parliament in sensational win in Bradford West - Labour/Coalition smashed

[articul8]

so, err, I'm not seeing the argument that the Labour Party was "reclaimed" for the left during this period. So effectively you're saying, if we tried really really hard, and the rank-and-file of the party and the unions was more left-wing and organised labour was much stronger, we might, might, be allowed to write a policy paper for the leadership to ignore both when campaigning (AES virtually unmentioned in Labour propaganda in '74) and when in government.
Where do I sign up?

The 74 manifesto was the most radical (with possible exception of 45) that Labour has ever fought an election on.

OK, they weren't able to hold them to implementing it - that is unarguable. And Benn failed by telling the left he was making his case privately around the cabinet table [which to be fair he was] rather than mobilising for democratic reforms to the party when in government. But you can imagine the pressure ("you're recking a Labour government and helping the Tories to gain power"), so he waited till after the election and the right discredited itself. Not that they cared, they fucked off and formed the SDP and helped Thatcher stay in for 18 years.

 

[articul8]

So fuck all

Oedipus at Colonnus was a blind seer like Tiresias by the end. You are being perversely literal and pedantic.

 

[butchersapron]

The 74 manifesto was the most radical (with possible exception of 45) that Labour has ever fought an election on.

OK, they weren't able to hold them to implementing it - that is unarguable. And Benn failed by telling the left he was making his case privately around the cabinet table [which to be fair he was] rather than mobilising for democratic reforms to the party when in government. But you can imagine the pressure ("you're recking a Labour government and helping the Tories to gain power"), so he waited till after the election and the right discredited itself. Not that they cared, they fucked off and formed the SDP and helped Thatcher stay in for 18 years.

The 74 manifesto was the most radical (with possible exception of 45) that Labour has ever fought an election on.

OK, they weren't able to hold them to implementing it - that is unarguable. And Benn failed by telling the left he was making his case privately around the cabinet table [which to be fair he was] rather than mobilising for democratic reforms to the party when in government. But you can imagine the pressure ("you're recking a Labour government and helping the Tories to gain power"), so he waited till after the election and the right discredited itself. Not that they cared, they fucked off and formed the SDP and helped Thatcher stay in for 18 years.

 

[butchersapron]

Oedipus at Colonnus was a blind seer like Tiresias by the end. You are being perversely literal and pedantic.

No i'm not. If you want to play this game, don't blag. Do the work. You ignorant cunt.

 

[Lo Siento.]

The 74 manifesto was the most radical (with possible exception of 45) that Labour has ever fought an election on.

The '74 campaign was conservative, and the AES almost entirely absent from the campaigning. The major labour figures essentially treating the AES as a unfortunate error that they had to pay lip service to in official documentation.

And that was the best that the left could do when it was 1000x stronger in the Labour Party and the working class much more powerful in society. The BEST! And you're using as an argument for joining and supporting the labour party now!

Invest a decade in campaigning, you might be able to slightly irritate the labour leadership!

 

[articul8]

You ignorant cunt.

the fact that you only knew of one is a mark of my ignorance? (Paul Ricoeur writes explicitly of Oedipus being in the blind seer tradition btw).

 

[articul8]

Invest a decade in campaigning, you might be able to slightly irritate the labour leadership!

what ought the left to have done in 70-81 oh wise ones?

 

[butchersapron]

the fact that you only knew of one is a mark of my ignorance? (Paul Ricoeur writes explicitly of Oedipus being in the blind seer tradition btw).

Well yeah.

 

[butchersapron]

what ought the left to have done in 70-81 oh wise ones?

Vote and join labour - we're shit.

 

[Lo Siento.]

what ought the left to have done in 70-81 oh wise ones?

What's got to do with anything? That their efforts were ultimately utterly fruitless is incontestable, that combined with immeasurably more favourable conditions should be sufficient to tell you that repeating their attempt is pointless.

I don't need to give you an alternative to tell you stop banging your own head on the table.

 

[articul8]

Vote and join labour - we're shit.

what was your recipe for the left to sweep to power in the 70s then?

 

[belboid]

Labour have been spinning it as the electorate in Bradford West giving them "a bloody nose for taking our eyes off the ball" since the result came in, and the Tories and Lib-Dems aren't bothered one way or another in terms of the actual result, because it wasn't exactly a marginal. Whether it indicates anything as far as Lib-Dem chances in Sheffield are concerned remains to be seen.

It was on the tory marginals list for 2010, they weren't far behind from 2005 - dont forget Marsha Singh actually increased his majority. They thought they had chance (a vague chance) of actually winning it. Both of them are delighted GG won, as it takes the spotlight of their performances, which was also dire.

I did just bump into an old comrade, leafletting for TUSC here, who said he thought it opened up real possibilties for the left, and that the candidate might actually win.

I was polite in my disbelief...

Oedipus at Colonnus was a blind seer like Tiresias by the end. You are being perversely literal and pedantic.

Blind, but not a seer. He was heroised precisely because he stopped opposing the seers, not because he became one.

 

[articul8]

immeasurably more favourable conditions

In some ways, in others not so. But you could you take that approach with a strategy like building a left electoral alternative to Labour - if the ILP couldn't do it in 31, and it couldn't be done at the height of Blair's unpopularity, why now when Labour will still inherit a large chunk of the anti-coalition vote?

 

[articul8]

Blind, but not a seer. He was heroised precisely because he stopped opposing the seers, not because he became one.

Critics like Ricoeur see him very much as a blind seer in the end, referring to him in explicitly these terms.

 

[butchersapron]

what was your recipe for the left to sweep to power in the 70s then?

Yes, opposing labour means sweeping to power. In the 70s.

 

[butchersapron]

Critics like Ricoeur see him very much as a blind seer in the end, referring to him in explicitly these terms.

Is this your only book? Have you a brain to argue the point? Like Ricoeur says about something else entirely.

 

[butchersapron]

General point: why do you think you're such a figure of fun articul8?

 

[articul8]

because you're like idiot children who laugh to themselves all day long - and make about as much sense?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

because you're like idiot children who laugh to themselves all day long - and make about as much sense?

It is quite funny watching you badly defend a position you don't even believe in.

 

[butchersapron]

because you're like idiot children who laugh to themselves all day long - and make about as much sense?

Vote labour you idiots

 

[articul8]

It is quite funny watching you badly defend a position you don't even believe in.

I suppose I'm too honest for my own good. I don't think some people on here would accept anything I (or anyone else) could possibly say in defence of socialist involvement in the Labour party. Insofar as it is pointless and self-defeating, I don't see how it is any more pointless or self-defeating than any other form of involvement in the left. And it least it raises the idea that an alternative is possible, and that we should demand that we are represented by people who fight for our interests.

 

[butchersapron]

You are, you're too good for us.

 

[butchersapron]

A martyr, a warrior, a seer and a saint. What a weekend.

 

[Lo Siento.]

In some ways, in others not so. But you could you take that approach with a strategy like building a left electoral alternative to Labour - if the ILP couldn't do it in 31, and it couldn't be done at the height of Blair's unpopularity, why now when Labour will still inherit a large chunk of the anti-coalition vote?

Except I've never argued that the answer is left electoral alternative to Labour. Like I said. I'm telling you to stop banging your head on the table. What you do when you stop is no business of mine.

 

[articul8]

It is quite funny watching you badly defend a position you don't even believe in.

Maybe you're right here. I don't believe Labour can be reclaimed for socialism, I believe that a new party or alignment of forces is necessary. But I don't see how you can magic that it up from where we are. So given people will look to Labour, however unwillingly, as the only default alternative to the coalition, then we might as well push it as far as it can be pushed (which might not be all that far, but who knows).

 

[Belushi]

I suppose I'm too honest for my own good. I don't think some people on here would accept anything I (or anyone else) could possibly say in defence of socialist involvement in the Labour party. Insofar as it is pointless and self-defeating, I don't see how it is any more pointless or self-defeating than any other form of involvement in the left. And it least it raises the idea that an alternative is possible, and that we should demand that we are represented by people who fight for our interests.

I actually considered rejoining Labour following the defeat last year and getting involved with the LRC, but each time I read one of your posts I remember why I left in the first place.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

And it least it raises the idea that an alternative is possible, and that we should demand that we are represented by people who fight for our interests.

No more than any other form of political activity, and quite possibly less.

No the fact is you have correctly identified a possible career path that depending on where you end up requires at the very least membership of Labour (just like that very public sociaologist bloke) and you feel the need to defend it as a radical political move - I don't think you're doing anything wrong in taking that career (it's a personal choice, any hope of radical social change is off the table at the moment) - I just don't think you should waste your time creating a fantasy socialist project for shifting Labour to the left to justify it.

 

[butchersapron]

Best way to do that is make sure the labour component dominates. Twat.

 

[articul8]

You are, you're too good for us.

I didn't say I was too good for you, I said I was too honest from my own good. Poor sinner I might be in other respects

 

[JimW]

I suppose I'm too honest for my own good.

Come down off the cross, we need the wood.