Galloway returns to Parliament in sensational win in Bradford West - Labour/Coalition smashed

[articul8]

change labour according to what precedent? Name a Labour Party world wide that has been "reclaimed" for the left.

I specifically said that it was unlikely that the left could capture the party for socialism which is what I assume you mean by "reclaim". But the history of the Labour party has not been one long march to the right it shifted to the left before 1945 and again in the early 70s.

 

[articul8]

Have another go.

why?

 

[butchersapron]

Because your go was wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

I specifically said that it was unlikely that the left could capture the party for socialism which is what I assume you mean by "reclaim". But the history of the Labour party has not been one long march to the right it shifted to the left before 1945 and again in the early 70s.

So your army will amass to such an extent that it has a gravity that means the leadership will be forced to break with neo-liberal assumptions. You believe this naive shit? What's different with pre-45 and what went wrong in the decade 71-81?

 

[Lo Siento.]

I specifically said that it was unlikely that the left could capture the party for socialism which is what I assume you mean by "reclaim". But the history of the Labour party has not been one long march to the right it shifted to the left after WWII and again in the early 70s.

Not even "capturing the party for socialism", just making it more left-wing than the status quo - where's the precedent?

Not buying either of those as swings to the left either. Early 1970s demonstrates the precise opposite in fact, even though the left gained substantial influence over policy making, when they took power in 1974 the Labour Party implemented right-wing policies. The Alternative Economic Strategy might as well have never been written.

As to WW2 you know as well as I do that Labour policy was determined by a long-running shift in the management of capitalism which stretched across all three major parties and the majority of policy planners and civil servants. It's not an example of members reclaiming anything at all.

 

[butchersapron]

 

[ViolentPanda]

Shift, you can't shift labour. You clueless cunt. You might get a career out of belief in that.

"Might"?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Didn't he lead the Labour party from 1994 to 2007?

I don't think the source of the voices in Blair's head was ever conclusively identified.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In classical tragedy the blind are usually the true seers.

And yet the Delphic oracles weren't, and neither was Greek history's greatest Seeress, Cassandra.You were saying...?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I asked for a blind seer from classical tragedy other than tiresias. How many have you came up with?

There aren't any that I can recall. I think that artie may be conflating the blind eye-sharing seeresses in a Ray Harryhausen film with classical literary tragedy.

 

[butchersapron]

Now you don't only look like a ponce articul8 you look ignorant too. Keep smiling.

 

[ayatollah]

I just hope its the POLICIES Galloway was putting forward that secured this astonishing result -- presumeably it was ... because Galloway himself is a completely unprincipled scoundrel -- always was.. always will be.

 

[ViolentPanda]

one, which was what you asked for (Cassandra)

Cassandra wasn't blind (that is, none of the extant myths mention her ever being blind) She was cursed, raped and enslaved, but never blind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think the source of the voices in Blair's head was ever conclusively identified.

Not by anyone who wasn't Blair, anyway.

 

[butchersapron]

Mastery of the classics as good as his mastery of a) the romantics and b) the moment

 

[articul8]

Because your go was wrong.

Try Phineus, son of Agenor then (btw I never said all seers were blind in classical myth)

 

[articul8]

Now you don't only look like a ponce articul8 you look ignorant too. Keep smiling.

not at all - see above. You and VP are wrong to suggest that the blind seer wasn't a familiar trope

 

[ayatollah]

The more one thinks about this win, and gets past what I hope is any socialist's distaste for Galloway's lifelong record of entirely self serving opportunism, the more wonderful it is ... particularly for the body blow surely it must have delivered to Ed and his NULABOUR neo Thatcherites ! The Lib Dems too must be SHITTING themselves ! Is it the start of a realignment in UK politics ? Or am I just getting all overexcited about a local vote with peculiar local characteristics .

 

[ViolentPanda]

I just hope its the POLICIES Galloway was putting forward that secured this astonishing result -- presumeably it was ... because Galloway himself is a completely unprincipled scoundrel -- always was.. always will be.

I can't think of many people who'll disagree with you on that point. However, unscrupulous and self-serving as Galloway may be, he's also a consummate political operator when he wants to be, and a gifted rhetorician. If he wants to do a good job, he can.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

am I just getting all overexcited about a local vote with peculiar local characteristics .

I think we all are, to be fair.

 

[butchersapron]

Try Phineus, son of Agenor then (btw I never said all seers were blind in classical myth)

I asked you for one - you offered someone was neither a seer or part of classcial tragedy, then you offered someone who was part of classial tragedy but not blind. Now you offer a blind person who is not part of classical tragedy but of classical mythology and isn't a seer. What a star. (the attempted shift onto myth has been noted)

 

[butchersapron]

not at all - see above. You and VP are wrong to suggest that the blind seer wasn't a familiar trope

And you've found not a single example all day. The fool might be a better type for your purposes. The half-fool anyway.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think it's interesting to ask what the peculiar characteristics were, if any.

I can see the political classes have an interest in spinning this as a one-off, but I'm not particularly inclined to take their word for that.

Personally I suspect it's mostly that GG has what you might call good "brand recognition" and credibility as an outsider candidate.

All the rest, well organised team, disaffected and youthful electorate with little-to-no stake in the status quo etc, I expect you could find in plenty of other places.

I'd be interested to see some analysis that explored such questions in a more concrete manner though, and ideally some sort of evidence to back it up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not at all - see above. You and VP are wrong to suggest that the blind seer wasn't a familiar trope

Let me get this straight, you're claiming that your sample of TWO delineates a "familiar trope"? It isn't a "familiar trope" in classical myth or literature. It's more common to Gothic and Romantic literature, and latterly, to TV and film, but it's hardly archetypal even there.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The more one thinks about this win, and gets past what I hope is any socialist's distaste for Galloway's lifelong record of entirely self serving opportunism, the more wonderful it is ... particularly for the body blow surely it must have delivered to Ed and his NULABOUR neo Thatcherites ! The Lib Dems too must be SHITTING themselves ! Is it the start of a realignment in UK politics ? Or am I just getting all overexcited about a local vote with peculiar local characteristics .

Labour have been spinning it as the electorate in Bradford West giving them "a bloody nose for taking our eyes off the ball" since the result came in, and the Tories and Lib-Dems aren't bothered one way or another in terms of the actual result, because it wasn't exactly a marginal. Whether it indicates anything as far as Lib-Dem chances in Sheffield are concerned remains to be seen.

 

[butchersapron]

I think it's interesting to ask what the peculiar characteristics were, if any.

I can see the political classes have an interest in spinning this as a one-off, but I'm not particularly inclined to take their word for that.

Personally I suspect it's mostly that GG has what you might call good "brand recognition" and credibility as an outsider candidate.

All the rest, well organised team, disaffected and youthful electorate with little-to-no stake in the status quo etc, I expect you could find in plenty of other places.

I'd be interested to see some analysis that explored such questions in a more concrete manner though, and ideally some sort of evidence to back it up.

GG plus a brand spinning out of control. Sackings this weekend. They were lucky to get it this week.

 

[articul8]

what went wrong in the decade 71-81?

This is a key question - and a complicated one. Ultimately, a period of capitalist crisis meant that Labour faced the choice of either opening up the neoliberal attack on the w/c or confronting the interests of capital - the leadership clearly opted for the former (of course with some support from the union bosses and the rightwing of the membership) in the belief that they had no alternative and the left couldn't mobilise sufficiently to force them down another course. They woke up far too late for the need for proper democratic internal structures of the kind that Benn et al only really started organising for in 80/81.

 

[articul8]

I asked you for one - you offered someone was neither a seer or part of classcial tragedy

true, but who is cast in the mould of a blind seer of the classical tragic tradition

then you offered someone who was part of classial tragedy but not blind

True (i think) but she was wounded and traumatised

Now you offer a blind person who is not part of classical tragedy but of classical mythology and isn't a seer.

He is a seer, although admittedly from wider classical mythology.

According to Apollonius, Phineus disclosed too many secrets of the Zeus to men, so Zeus took away his sight and made him older than he really was. Zeus further punished the blind seer, by sending birds, known as the Harpies ("Hounds of Zeus"), to steal the seer's food.

And in the Oedipus trilogy, the hero himself has his eyes put out and attains true insight on the explicit parallel with Tiresias. Anyway - a distraction.

 

[Lo Siento.]

This is a key question - and a complicated one. Ultimately, a period of capitalist crisis meant that Labour faced the choice of either opening up the neoliberal attack on the w/c or confronting the interests of capital - the leadership clearly opted for the former (of course with some support from the union bosses and the rightwing of the membership) in the belief that they had no alternative and the left couldn't mobilise sufficiently to force them down another course. They woke up far too late for the need for proper democratic internal structures of the kind that Benn et al only really started organising for in 80/81.

so, err, I'm not seeing the argument that the Labour Party was "reclaimed" for the left during this period. So effectively you're saying, if we tried really really hard, and the rank-and-file of the party and the unions was more left-wing and organised labour was much stronger, we might, might, be allowed to write a policy paper for the leadership to ignore both when campaigning (AES virtually unmentioned in Labour propaganda in '74) and when in government.

Where do I sign up?

 

[butchersapron]

true, but who is cast in the mould of a blind seer of the classical tragic tradition


True (i think) but she was wounded and traumatised


He is a seer, although admittedly from wider classical mythology.



And in the Oedipus trilogy, the hero himself has his eyes put out and attains true insight on the explicit parallel with Tiresias. Anyway - a distraction.

So fuck all