Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

[polly]

And why is it getting so personal? Christ on a bike.

I'm un-nuanced, just because people use words they don't even mean

You're the one implying I think working class people are an underclass. And asking if you're unnuanced is not really that rude for this place is it

I don't think it's foreign people's job to be 'exciting and vibrant' either. This is just how people sometimes use language, I don't know how else I can help you tbh.

 

[The39thStep]

Yes, it's Edie's criticism of someone who thinks it's normal to have a dressmaker and doesn't list any family or friends amongst her foreign acquaintances.

That's the way I saw it when I first saw the Baroness's tweet on Twitter. Obviously she couldn't list her workplace as an example of diversity.

 

[ska invita]

migration has done a great deal for the country that's not frequently recognised. Take the railways and motorways, largely built by Irish migrants. London, largely built by Irish migrants and of course the Russian, the Czech and the Pole remembered in the famous song 'mcalpine's fusiliers'. And migrants have contributed vastly to culture from at least handel on. Sam selvon's lonely londoners find their counterparts throughout the country. saying migrants have done fuck all for women in Rotherham is tosh.

I dont like the defence of migrants being based on what work or skills they/we have, or what food gets made or what positive culture gets added - people are people and should be allowed to just live and be celebrated for just being. Many British migrants just retire and drink in bars contributing nothing <absolutely fine by me.

 

[mojo pixy]

You're the one implying I think working class people are an underclass. And asking if you're unnuanced is not really that rude for this place is it

I don't think it's foreign people's job to be 'exciting and vibrant' either. This is just how people sometimes use language, I don't know how else I can help you tbh.

But you brought the word underclass into it. Not me

Call me unnuanced, if you want; you don't know me so personalising stuff like that is irrelevant. You aren't helping me, and I don't need you to, I simply don't get why we need to disparage working class people as servants or an underclass, instead of just talking about the working class. What's the point?

Someone on the internet looks down on the working class and calls them 'vibrant', someone else then calls them 'servants', someone else then calls them 'underclass'. It's a shit trajectory, however much it's painted as sarcasm, irony, loose language, or 'that's just how people use language'.

Maybe it is. Maybe that's also part of the problem here.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dont like the defence of migrants being based on what work or skills they/we have, or what food gets made or what positive culture gets added - people are people and should be allowed to just live and be celebrated for just being. Many British migrants just retire and drink in bars contributing nothing <absolutely fine by me.

And where would we be without the diversity of people working behind bars? you're right of course

 

[ska invita]

And where would we be without the diversity of people working behind bars? you're right of course

or the diversity of people drinking Infront of bars!!

 

[Pickman's model]

or the diversity of people drinking Infront of bars!!

 

[polly]

But you brought the word underclass into it. Not me

Call me unnuanced, if you want; you don't know me so personalising stuff like that is irrelevant. You aren't helping me, and I don't need you to, I simply don't get why we need to disparage working class people as servants or an underclass, instead of just talking about the working class. What's the point?

Someone on the internet looks down on the working class and calls them 'vibrant', someone else then calls them 'servants', someone else then calls them 'underclass'. It's a shit trajectory, however much it's painted as sarcasm, irony, loose language, or 'that's just how people use language'.

Maybe it is. Maybe that's also part of the problem here.

OK then, I will give it one last shot. It's not sarcasm or irony. It's implied criticism of her and her like's view of the working class, whether UK born or not. I'm sorry I suggested you were unnuanced as that seems to have insulted you, which I'm not interested in doing. It is however a bit frustrating to be misread over and over. I think it's bad faith. But this is not getting us any further in the discussion so I won't come back to it.

 

[mojo pixy]

OK then, I will give it one last shot. It's not sarcasm or irony. It's implied criticism of her and her like's view of the working class, whether UK born or not.

I get it.

But she did not use 'servants' or 'underclass', so if the implied criticism wasn't sarcasm or irony, all I'm left with is some weird kind of projection.

I'm loving the sneery tone though, it'll be a shame if your post above is the last of that.

 

[Edie]

Yes, it's Edie's criticism of someone who thinks it's normal to have a dressmaker and doesn't list any family or friends amongst her foreign acquaintances.

Ayah: Hindoo
Footman: Blackamoor
Shoeshine: Pickaninnie
Maid: Mussulman

These people are the problem. Lady Baroness of Islingtonian. Empire. Immigration to keep the factories running. You think it’s about fair play and the “British sense of Justice”?

And everyone looking at people looting Greggs. Sure. Terrible. Fucking idiots. Racist too some of them. Angry, desperate, nasty pieces of shit with some vulnerable people thrown in.

But powerless. Unlike our very nice Baroness. I thought it must be parody when I first read it.

 

[Edie]

I get it.

But she did not use 'servants' or 'underclass', so if the implied criticism wasn't sarcasm or irony, all I'm left with is some weird kind of projection.

I'm loving the sneery tone though, it'll be a shame if your post above is the last of that.

Maybe you’re just not going to understand and that’s okay.

 

[mojo pixy]

Maybe you’re just not going to understand and that’s okay.

Or maybe I understand, but you won't really explain. And that's OK too.

Ayah: Hindoo
Footman: Blackamoor
Shoeshine: Pickaninnie
Maid: Mussulman

You typed that out. I'm sure I'm being unnuanced but why?

 

[Dystopiary]

I dont like the defence of migrants being based on what work or skills they/we have, or what food gets made or what positive culture gets added - people are people and should be allowed to just live and be celebrated for just being. Many British migrants just retire and drink in bars contributing nothing <absolutely fine by me.

Yes. Everyone is worth more than their productivity.

 

[extra dry]

What is it with Islington anyway? (Apart from the tofu-eating elites?)

Islington tofu-eating elites is an anagram for 'eggon leftists' so there is that.

 

[Edie]

You typed that out. I'm sure I'm being unnuanced but why?

IT chap: South Asian

 

[mojo pixy]

IT chap: South Asian

rrright, but what she wrote there was descriptive (South Asian) and not a derogatory nickname. Whereas unbidden, you doubled down with

Ayah: Hindoo
Footman: Blackamoor
Shoeshine: Pickaninnie
Maid: Mussulman

and I don't get why. Is it meant to be funny?

 

[cupid_stunt]

There's been several charged with riot in NI, now the first in England...

A 15-year-old boy has become the first person to be charged with riot, a more serious offence than than violent disorder, in connection with recent unrest.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said the teenager, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is due to appear at South Tyneside Youth Court, where he will be asked to enter a plea to the charge.
Rioting carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison - double that of a charge of violent disorder.
The boy, from Sunderland, is accused of riot following disorder in his home city on 2 August.
Gale Gilchrist, Chief Crown Prosecutor for CPS North East, said: “This defendant is one of a number of individuals who we expect will be charged with riot, and as these are live proceedings we remind all concerned that there should be no reporting, commentary or sharing of information online which could in any way prejudice these proceedings.”
On Wednesday, Judge John Thackray KC, the Recorder of Hull, encouraged prosecutors to consider charging offenders who played central roles in the recent disorder in parts of the UK with rioting.

Rioter who looted Lush for bathbombs wearing England flag jailed for four years

John Honey had also been part of a mob that forced three Romanian men from their BMW

www.independent.co.uk

 

[brogdale]

The acceptable and completely oblivious side of the problem. Not like those dreadful people in Rotherham.

View attachment 438184

This post is problematic IMO. In the first place it posits migration as a "problem", describes the deliberate (neo)liberal pro-immigration stance as "oblivious" and casts that wholly instrumental/class-blind view as "acceptable".

 

[maomao]

rrright, but what she wrote there was descriptive (South Asian) and not a derogatory nickname. Whereas unbidden, you doubled down with


and I don't get why. Is it meant to be funny?

They're not random insults though, they're specifically derogatory terms used during the British Empire. She's accusing the Baroness of holding colonial attitudes towards ethnic minorities who she only acknowledges when they are in positions of service to her.

(apols if my reading incorrect Edie)

 

[The39thStep]

Richard Seymour's article on the rightwing riots is a good read, pacy punchy and at times inciteful. However when it abruptly stops with the conclusion

"The hypertrophic excitement of the pogromists, and their manifest enthralment at the idea of annihilation, gives them something to do about it. It is their alternative to the pervasive affects of paralysis and depression, in a dying civilization."

It actually generates more questions than answers and then imo when re reading the article creates doubt as to why he omits any real attempts at a materialist account of causation. It's a pity because had he accepted that challenge it would have been an enthralling read. As it is we are left to ponder not only what comes next in this 'dying civilisation' but whether this description 'dying civilisation' is UK centric or if we tweak the 'whiteness' aspect whether we can apply some of what he is saying about ethnonationalist thinking on a more global basis .

Richard Seymour, Dreaming of Downfall — Sidecar

Riots in the UK.

newleftreview.org

edit There is a reply to the article in the Sidecar section of NLR.

 

[mojo pixy]

They're not random insults though, they're specifically derogatory terms used during the British Empire. She's accusing the Baroness of holding colonial attitudes towards ethnic minorities who she only acknowledges when they are in positions of service to her.

(apols if my reading incorrect Edie)

This is great, nobody ever explains my posts for me or apologises so nicely for doing so. I'm just not special enough

 

[belboid]

Richard Seymour's article on the rightwing riots is a good read, pacy punchy and at times inciteful. However when it abruptly stops with the conclusion

"The hypertrophic excitement of the pogromists, and their manifest enthralment at the idea of annihilation, gives them something to do about it. It is their alternative to the pervasive affects of paralysis and depression, in a dying civilization."

It actually generates more questions than answers and then imo when re reading the article creates doubt as to why he omits any real attempts at a materialist account of causation. It's a pity because had he accepted that challenge it would have been an enthralling read. As it is we are left to ponder not only what comes next in this 'dying civilisation' but whether this description 'dying civilisation' is UK centric or if we tweak the 'whiteness' aspect whether we can apply some of what he is saying about ethnonationalist thinking on a more global basis .

Richard Seymour, Dreaming of Downfall — Sidecar

Riots in the UK.

newleftreview.org

edit There is a reply to the article in the Sidecar section of NLR.

the reply is much better, imo.

Seymours article isn't bad, at all. But he really does need a harsh editor who will cut his loquaciousness and make him sharper. And will remove non-words like 'fascoid'.

The reply - Anton Jäger, Into the Void — Sidecar

 

[brogdale]

the reply is much better, imo.

Seymours article isn't bad, at all. But he really does need a harsh editor who will cut his loquaciousness and make him sharper. And will remove non-words like 'fascoid'.

The reply - Anton Jäger, Into the Void — Sidecar

Key para for me:

Seymour’s account is easier to fault for what it does not say than for what it does. Granted, the riots are no twisted expression of ‘material interests’. But this should not lead us into a form of superstructuralism that represses the economic roots of the current crisis. The word ‘austerity’ does not appear in Seymour’s piece; ‘region’ features only once, even though practically all the riots took place in areas hit hard by Cameron’s cutbacks, many of them counted among the poorest in Northen Europe. If a Korschian outlook can lapse into lazy apologism, there is also a species of anti-economism which risks obscuring the social terrain and thereby relinquishing the prospect of changing it. To understand the flammable situation at which the pyromaniac far right has taken aim, we need less mass psychology and more political economy.

 

[belboid]

Key para for me:

agreed - even tho it doesn't do my argument that Seymour is far too pretentious any favours!

 

[maomao]

This is great, nobody ever explains my posts for me or apologises so nicely for doing so. I'm just not special enough

I didn't want to patronise but I think posters should be free to use mockery and ridicule in their posts. There's too much literalism on these boards sometimes.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't see two tier policing.

Here is someone who came out to defend this community. Not attack the police and he's gone down for it

Mosque defender among men jailed for Middlesbrough disorder

Noman Ahmed threw a punch at a man after a protest march turned violent, a court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't agree that people should be pursued by police for this

 

[The39thStep]

Key para for me:

Tribune pointed out that 'of the 10 most deprived areas of the country, 7 saw far-right riots this month — a sign that the collapse of community and belief in improvement has fed the politics of racism.'
https://t.co/lleB3oOyFx

 

[Wilf]

Tribune pointed out that 'of the 10 most deprived areas of the country, 7 saw far-right riots this month — a sign that the collapse of community and belief in improvement has fed the politics of racism.'
Despair Is Fuelling the Far Right

Decent article, though I'm not sure why the author is still a Labour councillor.

 

[Gramsci]

I live in central London. I know, live by and work with people across a wide range of nationalities and backgrounds.

For the record I do a working class job.

Given it's London there are areas of high deprivation and wealth side by side

My multicultural council ward is in top ten /twenty percent most deprived in the country. The same as the mainly white country town I originally came from. Which did have violent disorder.

I think it is mistake to equate supporting living in a multicultural city like London with be part of an elite.

Most people I work with were appalled by the sudden open violence by the far right. They like living in multicultural London. For those who were born in London it's just normal life. They have partners ( as I do) who are migrants or have ( often complicated) backgrounds from parents who were migrants here or married migrants.

This didn't happen over night. London has seen far right gain ground here in past . But what I see in London is a generational change. With younger generation much more relaxed about this. What I think is overlooked is what happens in people's daily lives. How peoples lives and how they live with others changes over time. This isn't proper politics as such. More maybe the politics of everyday life.

I think this side of it gets lost.

 

[scifisam]

I thought the obliviousness of the "list" was even simpler than that, TBH. That some people claim immigrants aren't taking ordinary people's jobs, and then they list a load of people working in ordinary people's jobs.

Even though I am in favour of immigration, it does have to be acknowledged that it has an effect on some industries that is not always positive for the people who want to work in them (as well as being a positive for a lot of other industries), because there simply is more competition for the same jobs. Plus I've lost count of the number of times I've seen - and heard in person - people claiming that native Brits don't want to work in those jobs, and that's bollocks.

This does affect people in Islington as well as Rotherham, though. It can be difficult to get, say, a part-time job at a pub or shop if you're young and have no experience and are competing against people who have lots of retail experience in their home country. Hard to become the person with experience if you can't get that first job. Islington is probably, actually, more affected by this than Rotherham.

Though I'd note that that affects British people of all backgrounds (ethnically, at least; it affects the upper middle class less), not just white Brits. Which is one of the reasons the pro-Brexit vote absolutely was not just white people.